Gary James' Interview With The Author Of
Cavern Club: The Inside Story
Debbie Greenberg
Debbie Greenberg saw what was going on in the British music scene before the rest of the world did. She would go to The Cavern Club in Liverpool, England and watch groups like The Beatles and Gerry And The Pacemakers and so many others perform. And her story gets even better. When The Cavern Club came up for sale in 1966, her father bought the club, and Debbie got to spend even more time at the club she loved. Debbie has written all about it in her book, Cavern Club: The Inside Story (Jorvik Press)
Q - Debbie, I actually spoke with someone who, like you, would go to The Cavern as a teenager with her friends and watch The Beatles. I was fascinated with that when I heard it. I asked, "What was it like to see The Beatles onstage?" She said they were just one of many groups who performed on that stage. You write you saw The Beatles onstage at The Cavern on February 9th, 1961 and you were blown away. The Beatles were different. Their music was incredible. They just oozed excitement. Did everyone in the club share your feeling?
A - I don't know, Gary, but I certainly did. They just had that special something. It just triggered like a lightning bolt going up me.
Q - You write, after they got back from Hamburg, "Their transformation was unbelievable with their gyrating hips." Gyrating hips? That's something Elvis would do.
A - (laughs) Yeah, well Paul and John were having an attempt at it.
Q - They were trying to imitate Elvis, were they?
A - Well, I don't think to that extent. I don't think they were doing the full Elvis gyration, but it was just sort of a shake.
Q - I know they would shake their hair.
A - Oh, yes.
Q - How long would The Beatles spend on stage at The Cavern? Was it an hour? Was it one set? Two sets?
A - It was usually two sets. In the beginning it was an hour for each set. Then it was reduced to about forty-five minutes eventually. But, I saw every single performance of The Beatles at The Cavern. All two hundred, ninety-two of them. When I saw them on the ninth of February, I was so blown away I went home to my father and I said, "I've just seen a group at The Cavern called The Beatles, and you mark my words, they're going to be famous one day." I just knew it. It was instinctive. It was instant for me. They had that certain something. They were something very, very special.
Q - Did you see other groups as well? Did you, for example, see Gerry And The Pacemakers?
A - Gerry And The Pacemakers were a brilliant group. All the ones that went into Brian Epstein's stable, Billy J. Kramer and The Fourmost and The Remo Four were all excellent groups, but they didn't have that certain something that The Beatles had. The Beatles had something very special.
Q - Was there any group that could have rivaled The Beatles at that time?
A - The group, in my opinion, that came the closest to The Beatles for sound and energy was The Big Three.
Q - Did you see any of The Beatles on the street?
A - I saw Paul after he became famous. He arrived at The Cavern for an impromptu visit with Linda in 1968. I didn't personally see them on the street. I knew Ritchie, or Ringo as we call him, because his mother lived across the road from our butcher shop, so I saw Ritchie regularly on a Saturday, come in to collect his mother's meat order. Apart from that, I personally didn't see them on the street.
Q - Did your father know that Ringo was a musician?
A - No. He didn't have a clue.
Q - What was Ringo's mother like?
A - She was lovely. A lovely lady. Very pleasant. Always had time for you. Just a lovely, pleasant lady. Always.
Q - Did you ever see Brian Epstein in The Cavern? And if you did see him, would you have know who he was?
A - Yes. Brian had managed a record shop in White Chapel. We used to go in there to buy all our records. So, we knew who Brian was and we knew who Alistair Taylor was. We were in there regularly, buying our little singles, 45s. On the day that Brian arrived at The Cavern to see The Beatles on the 9th of November in 1961, to anybody who wasn't a regular at The Cavern and didn't visit the record shop, he would've stood out like a sore thumb because he was well groomed, well spoken and not the same sort of person that attended The Cavern as a member. We weren't allowed to wear jeans in The Cavern, but guys would wear trousers and maybe a little leather jacket or a coat and black sweater. But Brian was impeccably dressed and well groomed and well spoken, so he stood out like a sore thumb. But of course, all the regulars knew him anyway from NEMS, so he didn't stand out to us. We just knew him as Brian.
Q - You suggest that Brian Epstein's decision to manage The Beatles was because he was attracted to John. But Bill Harry believes otherwise. He believes it was purely a business decision. And let's not forget, The Beatles you saw on The Cavern stage were not the same Beatles America saw on Ed Sullivan.
A - Well, I think primarily it was a business decision, but over the years people have intimated that he did have an attraction to John, but primarily I think it was a business decision. But who knows? It could have been a bit of both.
Q - You write that the British groups that played The Star Club in Hamburg, Germany for up to seven hours a night would only get a ten minute break every hour. The Beatles used to say that physically that would have been impossible. Your fingers and voice couldn't have withstood that punishing schedule. And it was explained to me there would be three groups playing The Star Club. Group one would play for forty-five minutes, then group two would play for forty-five minutes, then group three would play for forty-five minutes. Then, group one would come back onstage. So, there was actually two hours between sets, not ten minutes. Does that make sense?
A - Right. It does make sense. It makes a lot of sense. Paul said they had to play for eight hours a night, with ten minute breaks.
Q - He wasn't really giving an accurate description of the working environment.
A - Okay. That makes sense because, as you say, that's a long haul.
Q - Nobody could perform eight hours a night for very long. Maybe a couple of nights, if that.
A - Yeah.
Q - When the original owner of The Cavern put the club up for sale, what possessed your father to say, "I'll buy The Cavern."? He wasn't in show business, was he?
A - Well, during the war he entertained the troops with his own little ukulele rhythm band. So he did have some sort of a connection to the music business. But, his good friend, Joe Davey owned a cafe in Liverpool and they'd been friends for decades. He approached my father and said, "I've got the chance of buying The Cavern, but I can't afford to buy it on my own. Would you come in with me?" So, my dad came to me and said, "I've got the chance of buying The Cavern. What do you think?" I had a good business head. I'd seen The Cavern peak and I just knew it could happen again. I was absolutely delighted that my dad would be considering buying The Cavern. And so, my dad and Joe put their bid in for the lease. It was five and half thousand Pounds at the time and it was accepted. And that's how my father came to buy The Cavern with Joe.
Q - What would that five and a half thousand Pounds be equivalent to in American money? Do you know?
A - Oh, my goodness. No. At the time I don't know what the exchange rate was on the dollar then.
Q - Who was booking all the groups at The Cavern when your father took over? Was it Ray McFall?
A - Bob Wooler was doing all the engaging of the groups. They took him back. The reason The Cavern went on the market was Ray McFall. He bought it from the original owner and Ray McFall declared bankruptcy and that's when The Cavern closed in 1966. That's when Joe Davey approached my father and said, "Will you come in with me?" Besides the money they had to pay for the lease, they had to pan an extra five thousand between them to do all the renovations. The Liverpool Corporation gave them a list they had to do before they could open the club. Joe Davey was illiterate. He couldn't read. He couldn't write. He used to sign his checks with a cross. He needed my father for two things, the financial aspect and also to handle all the administration and the press, etc.
Q - What was your job at The Cavern? Were you the manager?
A - Well, eventually, because we had butcher shops when my father bought The Cavern. My father and mother ran The Cavern together with Bob Wooler, who they brought back in. They brought the head DJ back in. All the staff that had been in The Cavern prior to Ray McFall declaring bankruptcy returned and they all got their jobs back. Bob Wooler was basically running it then.
Q - Why did your father sell the club in 1970?
A - Well, he was approached by a friend of his, Harry Waterman. Harry Waterman owned about twelve clubs in Liverpool. My dad had known Harry for about thirty-odd years, but The Cavern was at its peak in about 1970. We had extended it where we had eight, ten, twelve Matthew Street. That was part of the lease. We extended it from ten to twelve and it was absolutely bursting at the seams every weekend, and busy on weekdays as well. Harry approached my father and said, "I'm interested in buying The Cavern." When my dad bought The Cavern he had to get rid of the butcher shops. I ran those for about a year, until we could sell them. As soon as the butcher shops were off-leased I stepped into The Cavern and ran that for him. So, I was running The Cavern from '67 to '70. When Harry Waterman approached my father he said, "I'm interested in buying The Cavern." My dad had already put an interest into a taxi garage. He always had something else on the back burner. So, because he stepped away from running The Cavern and I was looking after it, he thought it's at its peak. It's the best time to sell. At first he said, "Oh, leave it with me Harry." He didn't have any interest in selling The Cavern, but then Harry approached him again a month later and my dad said, "Well, it's at its peak and it's the best time to sell." So, negotiations commenced. Solicitors were involved and they started to negotiate.
Q - And you stayed on at the club until January, 1971?
A - Yes, because I had to show them how everything worked.
Q - The original Cavern was demolished in June of 1973, correct?
A - Yes, sadly.
Q - Do you miss The Cavern? I realize it's been rebuilt and it's a big tourist attraction, but if you head down to that place it must bring back a lot of memories.
A - Oh, it does Gary. I'm immediately transformed back in my mind into the original Cavern. It's a wonderful replica. It's the closest you're going to get to the original. In my mind I'm back to the original Cavern when I go down there, but it's a very good replica. Hats off to Dave Jones and Bill Heckle, who made a wonderful job of it.
Q - I envy you Debbie, You were in the center of the universe at that period in history.
A - I certainly was.
Q - And you had a front row seat.
A - I certainly did. On the last performance they had at The Cavern on the 3rd of August, '63, generally the lights would fuse at the original Cavern because the condensation would drip down the walls. It would get into the electric. That happened often. It's happened on their last performance, so all the lights went out and Paul got on the piano in the dark and started to sing and play "When I'm 64". Now, we'd never heard that song before. You know how impromptu Paul is. He took over in the dark and they resumed again when the lights were restored to finish their set. But that's how professional he is.
Q - What an incredible song to write for a young guy!
A - Yes, I know. His dad was part of that era, for that type of song. That's where he got the influence from, his father.
Buy Debbie's book at : The Beatles Bookstore
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