Gary James' Interview With Record Producer
Dennis MacKay



He's one of the most celebrated record producers in the business and for good reason. He's worked with some of the biggest names, including David Bowie, Jeff Beck, Jack Bruce, Mick Ronson and Judas Priest. The gentleman we are talking about is Mr. Dennis MacKay.

Q - Dennis, you never wanted to be a performer, did you? You wanted to be the guy turning the knobs, pushing the buttons, the guy behind the scenes, didn't you?

A - Well, actually when I was fourteen, fifteen, I was used to play drums and then I met a guitarist and we formed a band. We played out a few times but my friend worked in a recording studio. So, when I went over to his house he was playing The Kinks with vinyl. I'm looking at this vinyl disc, going, "It's amazing. How do they get the sounds? What's the process? What do they do to get the sound onto this disc?" He said, "It's a disc Dennis, but it's vinyl." I went, "Well, how do they do that?" He said, "Well, why don't you write some studios?" "Studios? What are you talking about?" "Recording studios." I was so naive. I was sixteen years old. So anyway, I wrote to three studios and all three of them got back to me, but one wanted to interview me and that was Trident. I got the letter and they said, "Come see us on Friday." So, I went to see them. Do you want to know how the interview went?

Q - Sure.

A - Oh Gary, this is classic. So, I arrive at Trident at like 9:30 in the morning and I walk in through the front door. It was 17 St. Anne's Court off Waldorf St., London. That's where Trident is. So, I walk through the door and I sit down in reception. There's like seven other teen boys in there, very young, all nicely dressed like I was nicely dressed. I'm waiting and all of a sudden this receptionist would say, "You," and it wasn't me first. They got rid of seven guys and then they said, "Dennis, you have to go to the third floor. Take the lift and you'll see the door will be open. Just walk in." So I went, "Okay." I go in the elevator, go up to the third floor, walk in and I see Barry Sheffield. There's Norman Sheffield and Barry Sheffield and they own Trident Studios. So, I walk in and it's full of cigar smoke. Barry Sheffield and other guy were sitting there. I think it was Malcolm Toft, who designed the Trident A Ranges. I think it was. Anyway, Barry said to me, and he's got this Yorkshire kind like heavy sound to his voice, he goes, "Right. Listen, what's your name?" I said, "My name is Dennis MacKay." "Right, Dennis. Sit down." So, I sat down and he goes, "Now listen," and this is exactly what he said to me. "How much money do you make?" I got a part-time job. I go to school, but I just finished school. I get paid like fourteen Pounds a week. And he said, "Fourteen Pounds a week? You're gonna get nine Pounds a week. You're gonna clean out the shit holes." I'm looking at him and at that time I was living with my parents. I'm looking at this guy smoking a cigar, telling me he's gonna give me nine Pounds a week and I have to clean out the toilets. He said, "If anybody pukes, you gotta pick it up." I sort of went, "Okay." As he's throwing me these things, he's saying, You're gonna cook meals at night for the engineers and producers. We got a kitchen upstairs on the fourth floor." I went, "Okay." In the back of my mind I'm going, "Are you kidding me? There's no way I'm gonna do this."

Q - I don't think you knew how to do all of that, did you?

A - Well, no. Only how to cook. But I was living with my parents, making fourteen Pounds a week. All of a sudden if I went home and told my parents, "Mom, Dad, I'm getting nine Pounds a week," they would have gone, "Dennis, what are you doing? No. You can't take that job." So, in the back of my mind Gary, and this is the funny part, I'm going, "There's no flipping way I'm gonna take this job." And Barry goes, "Yeah. I told you you're gonna clean out the shit holes." I go, "Absolutely. You got it sir." And he goes, "If anybody pukes, you gotta pick it up. If you don't have a cloth you pick it up with your hands." I'm just looking at him, going "Absolutely. You got it." He goes, "We got a toilet on every floor." I said, "Absolutely." Then he carried on. I go, "You got it. Nine Pounds a week? That's fine with me. Absolutely fine." So he goes, "Right. Well, fuck off! We'll let you know." I turned around, got into the lift and went downstairs. On my way home I'm going, "There's no way I want this job." At the time I was just agreeing with Barry Sheffield, going "You got it. Absolutely." So, about five days later I get a phone call from Barry Sheffield. He goes, "Dennis, this is Barry. Listen, you've got the job. Look, we've got our own cleaning crew. We asked those questions of everybody else and they all said, 'No. I'm not cleaning up puke. I'm not cleaning up the toilets.' You looked so enthusiastic about it that you got the job." (laughs) So, I got the job anyway, but I didn't want the job.

Q - He was testing you. There was some kind of psychological thing going on there.

A - Right. So I want, "Wow! Okay." The day I started, this was a classic moment, the tea boy that worked there for three or four months, he said, "Dennis, come up to the kitchen." I went upstairs to the kitchen and I got a phone call from a young guy called Ken Scott. He called the kitchen and the tea boy answered it and he goes, "Okay Ken. You need two teas in the control room. Okay." He put the phone down. He said, "Dennis, make two teas and take it down to Studio A, downstairs." I went, "Okay." He said, "When you walk into Reception, the other door is the one that goes into the control room." I went, "Okay." So, I made two teas, sugar and cream on the side. I go downstairs and I meet this guy called Ken Scott. He goes, "Hello. You're new here." I said, "Yes." He goes, "Well, my name is Ken Scott." "Pleased to meet you." "Okay. I'll take two sugars, a bit of milk. Take the other tea to the artist down there." I walked down the stairs and I open the studio door and I see this guy with blonde, curly hair, playing a six string and he's just strumming. He's sitting bare feet, cross-legged on the floor. I walk up to him and he says, "Hello. You're new here." I said, "Yes." He goes, "Oh, okay. My name is... What's your name?" "My name is Dennis." He goes, "I'm David." And the track he was playing the day I started was "This is ground control to major Tom." Imagine, the same day I go upstairs to the re=mix suite and I make a couple of coffees for that room. They were mixing "Your Song". Elton John. Imagine, the same day. From that moment on I was tea boy for six months, but they were all these now like classic artists, Elton John, Bowie, T-Rex. It just went on and on and on. I didn't know that Trident did a lot of the White Album. "Hey Jude" was recorded there.

Q - Did you have any advanced studio background?

A - No, sir. I was a tea boy. I just started from the ground up. I didn't know anything. Ken Scott took a liking to me. After I was a tea boy for six months, Ken told the management, "Look, I like Dennis MacKay," and I got promoted to to be a tape operator. The magical thing about Trident, why Trident worked so well was they had a business policy where the engineer could fire the Tape Op(erator). The Tape Op could fire the tea boy, okay? When you think about that work ethic it's like they should do that nowadays. Nobody screwed up. Nobody wanted to make a mistake. Not the higher up would fire you, the second in command would fire you. So, it was just great. So, Ken Scott wanted me to work with him. I did a lot of projects with Ken, "Hunky Dory", "Ziggy Stardust", "Aladdin Sane", Pin Ups". It's been great. At that time, Carly Simon's "No Secret" album, "You're So Vain", T-Rex. It was just like one classic band after another. And solo artists like Harry Nilsson, "Nilsson Schmilsson", "Son Of Schmilsson".

Q - How far up the corporate ladder did you go?

A - I was a tea boy, tape op, engineer, co-producer, producer. That's how it worked in my life.

Q - Did you ever work at Abbey Road Studios?

A - No. I did some work there, but that was it. I just did like a weekend there. That was it. Ken Scott, my teacher, he worked at Abbey Road.

Q - How long were you at Trident Studios?

A - I was there for like seven to eight years.

Q - When I think of Trident Studios I think of The Who.

A - Absolutely.

Q - Did you ever meet The Beatles? Did they come through Trident?

A - Yes. I met Paul McCartney, Ringo, and George Harrison. We did 50% of the album "All Things Must Pass" for George Harrison. We did all the vocals. Most of the guitars.

Q - After The Beatles were initially introduced to George Martin, he asked them if there was anything he disliked. George Harrison said, "For starters, I don't like your tie."

A - (laughs)

Q - Had someone said that to you, what would your reaction have been?

A - It's a typical kind of English humor because it's very black and white. There's no kind of, "I wonder how they would feel if I said that?" English people don't think that way. They'll just say it anyway to get the buzz. There was a moment at Trident that blew me away. When I was engineering and actually co-producing, I was working with a band called Brand X. Phil Collins was the drummer, John Goodsall was the guitarist, Percy Jones was the bass player. I remember mixing it in the re-mix room at Trident. The phone rings and the assistant engineer picks the phone up and says, "Okay, hold on one moment." Dennis, it's for you." "Yes." He goes, "It's George Martin." Roy Thomas Baker, who produced Queen and a lot more albums than that, plays jokes on people. That's what we did at Trident. We just pretended we were like Paul McCartney and would call and get you pumped up and you'd pick up the phone and it's not him. It's somebody who works at Trident. But, we used to do that a lot of times. When I picked up the phone I looked at the assistant and said, "You're joking." "Dennis, it's for you." "Hello, Dennis MacKay?" "Yes, it is. This is Dennis MacKay speaking, yes." "This is George Martin here." And then I recognized the voice. I kind of stood up from my chair and went, "Yes." He goes, "Listen, Jeff Beck has shown some interest in working with you." He goes, "So listen. I've got a studio called Air London and I know you work at Trident. Would you be interested in getting together? If you are, where would you like to record it, if it happens?" I was just shaking. "Well, how about at Trident? And why wouldn't I because I know Trident Studios." He goes, "Okay. I'll be there in fifteen minutes." You've got to imagine, Gary, being a Beatle fan, a George Martin fan, not only am I talking to him, but I can't believe it. George Martin is going to be here in fifteen minutes! I ran down and told the band I'd be back in a minute, I've got to do something. I went downstairs and I'm sitting in Reception and in comes George Martin, beautiful, immaculate suit, tie, white shirt, and he goes, "Hello." I go, "Hi Mr. Martin." He goes, "Dennis, call me George." I went, "Oh, my God. Yes sir. No, not sir." "Call me George." "Oh, okay George." He said "We did some work here at Trident. Take me down to the studios." So, I took him down to the studios. I took him to the re-mix suite and he said, "Listen, I want you to work with me. And of course, Jeff Beck and myself, we know what you've done, the work that you've done. I want you to meet Jeff." I worked on the "Wired" album that he produced a lot of and that was an experience too 'cause imagine you're engineering and he's sitting next to you. I was so humbled, I just watched him. I just watched how he works. Imagine, he's The Beatles' producer. Oh, my God! What an honor!

Q - Why didn't The Beatles ever record their albums in the United States? Do you know the answer to that?

A - I don't know. I think more family because I know when they came out here (the U.S.) they had a huge following. In England it's very strange. When artists come here they get swamped a lot of times. I think in England when someone is in the studio, no one is really allowed in the studio. It's very private. Very quiet. When we had like famous people, when Carly Simon came there were no fans outside. When George Harrison was doing his album there were no girls, people waiting outside to see him. Maybe one or two. But if it would've been here, I think there would've been too many people. Too many distractions. Too many interviews, say meaning for the television. That wasn't a big thing in England at that time anyway.

Q - You're absolutely right about that. I've been told in 1967, in England, you could see Paul McCartney or Mick Jagger walking down the street and no one would bother them. That would not have been the case in the Unites States.

A - Right. I've got to tell you something. When I was working with George Martin, something happened. One evening, I worked with him for like five or six days. I did like three or four tracks, something like that. The first night I worked with him it started at ten o'clock in the morning and all of a sudden not it's nine o'clock or ten o'clock at night. Jeff Beck said, "It's a wrap. Why don't we just call it. I want to go home and rest." So George Martin said, "Okay. Good night everyone." And he looks at me and says, "Dennis, the band is leaving. I really enjoyed working with you." As the band left, everybody left. I'm sitting behind the console or in front of the console with George Martin and he says, "Dennis, it's been a pleasure working with you." I said, "The honor is mine. I can't believe I'm working with you." He goes, "Well listen, I've enjoyed it so much," and this is exactly what he said, "You can ask me anything." I had a feeling what he was talking about because I would suddenly say, "Oh, how's Paul McCartney doing?" and then I'd carry on working with Jeff Beck. Two hours later, "What's John Lennon doing" Anyway, that night he said, "Dennis, ask me anything," I said George, how did it work so well? What's the secret ingredient when John Lennon and Paul McCartney worked so well together? It's just uncanny." He goes, "Dennis, that's a good question. This his how it works, and I've worked with them enough. I know this. Paul McCartney can't read music," and still can't. Nowadays Paul McCartney still can't write. George said, "Listen, the best way I can describe it is Paul McCartney is a perfectionist. Even if he's doing a simple 4/4 timing on a simple song, very simple, he'll take six, seven, eight hours just to lay down a bass. He's an absolute perfectionist and it takes weeks to do a song. Now when you've got John Lennon, he likes a bit of crackle on the amp. He likes a little distortion. He likes not being exactly on time. They way I can describe it is this, if John Lennon was like Paul McCartney, a perfectionist, and Paul McCartney is a perfectionist, what do two like poles do?" I said, "They repel." He said, "There you go. They just attracted immediately." I went, "What a great way to describe them."

Q - You got not only an insight into their personalities, but their recording technique as well.

A - Exactly.

Q - You got to look inside the magic of The Beatles.

A - Right. You think about it, if John Lennon was so neat and tidy, he was always out there, a little noisy, a little crackly. He didn't mind all that. Paul McCartney, a perfectionist. Absolute perfectionist. So, it was just a lesson to me. As he's telling me this, you're not going to believe this one, my assistant... I'm hearing these stories. I'm not reading about it. I'm not hearing it from anybody else. I'm listening from the producer, George Martin's mouth. In the middle of the story he's talking about John Lennon and Paul McCartney, my assistant got up from the multi-track machine, the analog machine, comes over and said, "Listen you guys." I just looked at my assistant. "Listen you guys. What time do you want to start tomorrow? I know you'll be gabbing all night." And George Martin kind of looks at the guy and then he looks at me. He said, "Dennis, how about 10:30 tomorrow?" I said, "See you at 10:30." My assistant turns around and walks out of the control room. I went, "How could you walk out on George Martin telling a story about The Beatles?" I said, "Sorry George. Sorry about that." He said, "Dennis, don't worry. I can tell you something about that guy." I said, "What?" He said, "He's never gonna make it."

Q - He was right. You have to have a certain enthusiasm about the business.

A - Right. Exactly.

Q - You were really interested in learning the whole process of recording.

A - Absolutely. When I think about Ken Scott and myself would be in the re-mix suite. I'll give you a quick story. On a weekend sitting between us, 'cause we're mixing his album, is David Bowie, okay? I think we were doing "Hunky Dory" or "Ziggy Stardust", one of those albums. I noticed, and this is a classic moment, Ken Scott takes care of his side of the console. I take care of the other side. I'm his assistant engineer. So, he says, "Dennis, you look after the bass, the drums, maybe a rhythm guitar." He'll take care of the pianos, the vocals, solo guitar. So I'm sitting there and David Bowie is sitting behind us, but between us. He's in the center. Ken Scott will be one side of the console. I'll be the other side of the console. We used to monitor so loud. The bass drum would be hitting you in the chest. And it's Bowie's material. It's his music. So anyway, the music is playing so loud that I turn 'round while the track is playing and I look behind me with Bowie sitting in the middle and Bowie's got a legal pad and he's writing something on it. Then he kind of looks up and he puts his hand to his chin and then he looks down at the paper again and starts writing. I'm looking at Ken mouth very quietly, "What's he doing?" And the music is playing loud and Ken looks at me and goes, "I don't know." So the track is now ending. Ken fades it out and we're gonna do another take for the mix and I turn 'round and there's no music playing and I said, "David, what are you doing?" He goes, "Oh, I'm writing lyrics for this other song I'm gonna be doing." I said, "David, wait a minute. You're hearing music," and it was incredibly loud music, "and you can write lyrics for another song?" He goes, "Oh, yeah. Dennis, I can just switch off just like that." With his own music! Imagine you can switch off with your own music and he's writing melody and lyrics.

Q - I've never heard that before.

A - Right. I said, "David, I can't believe you can do that!" He said, "I can. I can." Ken Scott wrote a book about Bowie, Abbey Road to Ziggy Stardust, or something. It came out about two or three years ago. Ken called me up and he said, "Dennis, do you remember any stories about Bowie?" He said, "I've got a few, but do you remember? Let's get together." So, Ken Scott and myself, five years ago, got together. He said, Do you remember any stories about Bowie?" I said, "Oh, one take Bowie." And Ken looked at me and goes, "Dennis, thank you so much for saying that." I said, "Why?" He goes, "Nobody believes me." I said, "Really? One take Bowie." He said, "Dennis, you remember that?" I said, "Yeah." And the thing is Gary, every track from "Hunky Dory", "Ziggy Stardust", "Aladdin Sane" and "Pin Ups", those four albums that we did, one after the other, every time I put a mic up, Bowie would just go, "Are you ready to go?" Ken Scott would get a level very quickly, one line of the verse, one line of the chorus. Those were two different levels usually. Ken would say, "Okay David." He would say, "Okay, let's go," and do it in one take.

Q - He probably rehearsed it many times over before he came in to record it, don't you think?

A - Good point. That's a very good point. I never asked him. But, I've seen him on television and when he goes on a live interview, he's always perfect pitch. Always. But you're right. He might have rehearsed it before hand, maybe to you know, how sometimes in those days to show off a little bit. "I can do it in one take."

Q - Whether he rehearsed the songs at home or with a band somewhere, there can be no doubt he was well rehearsed.

A - Right.

Q - When you produce a hit song, what does that mean for you? I don't know if you were a staff producer or independent producer?

A - Independent. I worked at Trident, but I got a lot of freelance work.

Q - Okay. So, when you produce a hit record can you then ask for more money or get points on an album?

A - Yeah, exactly. I suppose in those days getting two points you'd go up to three points, maybe four (points), which was a wonderful thing. I like Pop. I like Rock. Classic Rock. I like Pop tracks. I like Elton John. I like Bowie. Eagles. All of a sudden I did an album which got me forty albums, a guy called Al Di Meola. He called me and said, "Dennis, I'm in a band called Return To Forever. Would you be interested in recording us?" I said, "Absolutely." So, I went to Caribou Ranch in Denver, Colorado and I recorded this album called "Romantic Warrior", and from that one album it got me like forty other albums, Jazz albums. I mean it was like ridiculous.

Q - Did you like Jazz music?

A - You know, I like Rock/Jazz. I like Return To Forever 'cause you're working with the best, Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Al Di Meola and Lenny White. And I'm talking about forty years ago. When people ask me, "What Jazz albums did you do?" When I talk to bass players or a guitarist, I go, "I did 'Romantic Warrior'", or a Jazz album many years ago. "Dennis, I picked up a bass once I heard Stanley Clark on bass," and these are famous people. So, I went, "Really?" Lenny White, a drummer. A lot of people respect him. Chick Corea, I mean the guy's got like sixteen Grammys 'cause he's such a classic, great guitar player. So, I just went from that to more and more. I like Fusion Jazz and then I got to like more Rock with Judas Priest and Pat Travers. The heavier stuff. Can I leave my e-mail address here?

Q - Sure.

A - I'm always like looking for band and artists and solo artists to either engineer or produce or co-produce. I know budgets are small. I totally understand where people are coming from with that. My e-mail address is ProducerDennisMacKay@yahoo.com. You never know. Who's not looking for work in the music business?

© Gary James. All rights reserved.

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