Gary James' Interview With John McEuen Of
The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band



He is the founding member of a band that has performed over ten thousand concerts and three hundred television shows, and that includes his solo performances as well. He's made over forty albums, seven of which are solo that have earned four Platinum and five Gold recognition awards, Grammy nominations, an IBMA Record Of The Year award, and performed on another twenty-five albums as a guest artist. He's also produced another seven albums and fourteen film scores, two Emmy nominated shows and more than three hundred concerts throughout his career including his first in 1965 in Long Beach, California with Bob Dylan. His theme song, which also must include his band, must be "Mr. Bojangles". The group we are referring to is The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. We spoke with the group's founder, Mr. John McEuen about the band's colorful history.

Q - John, I couldn't help but notice that you've given over ten thousand interviews!

A - (laughs)

Q - And still you want to talk! Now, that's an achievement in itself.

A - Well, I find it interesting that people find something interesting. (laughs)

Q - See, the challenge for me is to ask you something that you haven't been asked. It's going to be tough, but I'm going to try and rise to the occasion.

A - I feel like the people that read your interviews might not have read any of those interviews.

Q - The New York Times reported that a fire in 2008 at Universal destroyed hundreds of master tapes, including The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's tapes. Is that an accurate reporting?

A - Except that I've stolen most of the masters from the companies in '76. (laughs)

Q - So, it doesn't affect you then?

A - Well, many of 'em it doesn't. In '76 my brother and I were putting together a triple album called "Dirt Silver And Gold". It was a combination of one album and two compilations. In order to do the compilations we told the company we need the masters. And I just didn't give 'em back. I kept 'em in my possession, like the "Circle" album is sitting right next to me, (laughs) the master tapes. I didn't feel it was appropriate for a company whose ownership would change at some time to have control of classic tapes. Now I'm glad, for sure.

Q - I would be glad too. You're one of the fortunate ones.

A - So, when I re-mastered the "Circle" album, the 2002 release, I did it from the masters that I had and it sounded great. And I re-mastered the "Uncle Charlie" album a year later and the same thing. Then I could add a couple of songs to it.

Q - How does something like that happen? It almost seems like that not only hurts the future earning potential of an artist, but future revenues of the company as well.

A - Well, they already have the masters in production and they're out there in the CD, digital world. If they have digital copies somewhere, that can help. It's such a broad question that it's hard to have any one answer that fits everybody. But, I don't need that. I have the answer that fits us.

Q - Did you hear about the fire long before The New York Times article?

A - I heard about it. I said, "That's interesting. That's too bad," but you know, these old tapes sometimes they don't play after twenty years. They lose their top end or they shed. Or you straighten out a tape that's been curved for twenty, thirty years and it cracks the oxide on the tape and you just have to bake 'em overnight slowly to reattach the oxide or make sure it's not going to fall off. One master tape I remember twenty years ago I was doing I had to hold a rag with some kind of lubricant on it as the tape went into the gate 'cause it was too dry. It was too brittle and I had two passes on that to transfer it to digital so I could mix it. But there are challenges of things that happen. What it boils down to is the disc is the best preservation. (laughs) You have it on a good disc somewhere and you're gonna be okay. Then if you get it transferred to digital you'll be okay.

Q - You promoted a Bob Dylan concert in 1965 with borrowed money from your father. How'd you know you'd make money on that show?

A - I didn't know. Nobody knew until the tickets started selling and they sold really fast. I paid him back in six weeks. Good thing. (laughs) It surprised him. My brother did a show with Theodore Bikel and lost money. I took the Bob Dylan guy 'cause he was just new out there. I think it was his "Freewheelin'" album that was out. By the time the concert came around he was big news and sold out the little auditorium at Wilson High School. I didn't get to meet him. I was 19 years old, maybe I was 20. It was just before The Dirt Band. It was during that confusing time in the mid-'60s. The Dirt Band was forming. Folk music was passing on. New groups were springing up like The Byrds and The Association and the Kaleidoscope, which was Chris Darrow from The Mad Mountain Ramblers, David Lindley from Dry City Scat Band and a guy named Zal something, and Ry Cooder. That was an example of one of those groups in the '60s. We got together as Nitty Gritty Dirt Band in '66. By February of '67 we had our first hit, "Buy For Me The Rain", and that put us on shows all over the country.

Q - In '65, when you had success with the Dylan concert, you didn't pursue a career as a concert promoter. Why not?

A - I don't know. I used that ability to promote throughout the years a few other concerts here and there. Then in 1990 the Deadwood Jam came around and I did an outdoor festival in Deadwood, South Dakota for fifteen years called Deadwood Jam, a two day show. It was a show that had a lot of national acts. It was really fun. Leon Russell, Fabulous Thunderbirds, Arlo Guthrie, Big Head Todd And The Monsters. It was fun. But as far as promoting at a younger age, I was pursuing music. I liked the music side, but I also liked the promoting side. I didn't do anything and I got a new banjo.

Q - Who came up with this phrase, "Will The Circle Be Unbroken"? Was that you?

A - Well, in the early 1990s there was a song called "Can The Circle Be Unbroken" and that morphed into "Will The Circle Be Unbroken" and then A.P. Carter found it and recorded it with a couple of verses he wrote and some of the traditional verses. A.P. Carter was mainly a collector of old music and the music from around the area he lived in, which was Hilton, Virginia. He'd get in the car and he'd go out and he had an incredible mind to be able to remember things and write 'em down and keep track. A lot of the Carter Family music was, well, collected from other people. They didn't write a lot of the things that they did. What they did was bring it to the forefront in a way that he arranged things. Maybelle played the guitar and Sarah had her incredible harmony. Everything came together to where in 1927 where Ralph Peer recorded them in Bristol, Tennessee, they were a new thing. They helped establish Country music along with Jimmie Rodgers. When we recorded the album, that was just going to be one of the songs, but when we recorded it, it became obvious that was going to be the title. My brother figured it out. My brother took all but two of the pictures that were on the cover in the package and I took the other two. That album came about because of a very simple thing. I wanted to record with Earl Scruggs from when I started playing the banjo at 18 years old. By 20 years old I was just mesmerized by his playing. By 23, 24 he came to see us at Vanderbilt University and that led to seven months later me asking him if he'd record with Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. His answer was, "I'd be proud to." First of all, he wouldn't have to come to that concert if his oldest son, Jerry Scruggs had not said, "Hey Dad, let's not go to the Opry tonight. The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band is playing Vanderbilt." "Oh, okay. Let's go see them 'cause they did 'Randy Lynn Rag' I want to meet that banjo picker." "Randy Lynn Rag" was one of my hot stage songs and that was Earl's song named after his son, Randy Lynn. He told me that night when I met him, "I wanted to meet the boy who played 'Randy Lynn Rag' the way I intended to." (laughs)

Q - What a compliment!

A - Boy, no kidding, what a compliment. I wish I could play it the way I intended to. I can get into it. A lot of notes. (laughs) That led to the next week at the same club in Colorado where Earl had been playing for a week, at the same club Doc Watson had been playing. Merle Watson I'd met a few months earlier and told him, "Merle, I'm going to ask Earl Scruggs when he's in Colorado if he'd record with us." Merle, Doc's son, was all excited. I said, "I want your dad to be involved." I didn't meet Doc that night. It was too big of a crowd. So, I hung out with Merle. That was in April. He was playing in Pasadena. Then in June, after I'd asked Earl the question, I went up to Merle a week later and said, "Earl said yes! Earl said yes!" "Oh, I gotta introduce you to Daddy," and he did. I told Doc we were going to make an album with Earl Scruggs. He said, "I wanna pick," and eight weeks later we started recording. Thirty-four songs in six days. (laughs)

Q - You didn't waste any time in that studio.

A - Well, everybody knew what they were doing. Everybody meaning the other people. We had to learn the songs, but they aren't that hard. Some of them were. Thirty of them weren't. Many of the others we had played before. So, we just had to fit in. We wanted to be supporting Maybelle and Doc. When we did "Tennessee Stud" it was such a cool record because I'm there with headphones on, right across from Doc Watson, and I felt like I was listening to an old record, a cool old record. This is really neat. It was like, "This is a masterpiece, (laughs) if I can be so bold," I said to myself. And sure enough, it came out just wonderful.

Q - In the early days your brother Bill managed the band. What did he know about managing a band?

A - Nothing.

Q - I knew you would say that. Why, I don't know.

A - (laughs) He had an instinct and he managed a couple of other people and he learned how to say yes and no at the right time. He learned as we went. When The Dirt Band came into his life of managing it was the right time. He could take all his photography expertise, his knowledge of music, his understanding of how something should be recorded, mixed, and apply it. He had a canvas, a Dirt Band canvas to paint on with his ideas. He was our George Martin. He was the extra member of The Dirt Band in a sense. The other guys would never admit that, but Jimmy Ibbotson would. He understood Bill's contribution. Jeff (Hanna) always... "Hey Jeff, how about if I get you a set of drums?" "Alright. Throw 'em in the ocean." Jimmy Messina called me up one day and said, "Hey, I want you to come up to the house and listen to a demo I made with Kenny (Loggins). Bring Jeff. I think it's a song he could sing." We drove away from his house with Jeff saying, "I don't want to do that. That's not a hit. Your Mama Don't Dance, Your Daddy Don't Rock 'n' Roll. Anybody can sing that." "Okay, I'll tell him." He already turned down "Danny's Song". We had the first crack at that because I made a demo of Kenny Loggins doing five songs, first thing he ever recorded. From that we got four songs, but we didn't do "Danny's Song". It was a year and a half, two years later that Jimmy called me to listen to "Your Mama Don't Dance". Bands have a strange dynamic. Jeff made a lot of right decisions and he had Jimmy Ibbotson singing harmony or singing lead. They worked together like brothers. They picked a of good material.

Q - In your biography (The Life I've Picked: A Banjo Player's Nitty Gritty Journey) you write that you did ten shows with The Doors. You say, "Jim Morrison was moody and acted very important. No one could speak to him as he slumped to and from his dressing room." How was he acting important? He wouldn't talk to you?

A - No. I don't think I had two words with him. I talked to Robbie Krieger and Ray Manzarek, who was a nice guy. But no, that was a role he was playing and he didn't know it. We all get assigned roles that we either knowingly assume or just kind of do them. (laughs) And they become your life. His role was being the troubled, moody singer. He didn't know that it was just something that was marketable for awhile.

Q - To open for The Doors must have been difficult.

A - It was a different time. This was the early, early years. We were on the East Coast with The Doors. Some people had heard of 'em. Some people hadn't, and they went with those who did. Some of 'em heard the records and you don't know who they are from the record. It was the first couple of years of their existence. It was show business. We had the same agency. The agency would tell the promoter, "Okay, you have The Doors booking, and the opening act is going to be..." And they would pick somebody on their roster who had a hit. And we had a hit, "Buy For Me The Rain". It wasn't much of a hit, but at least it was something. (Billboard #45 in June, 1967) I would say that half of the show went over and half of 'em didn't. We had much better success opening for Bobby Sherman.

Q - That was going to be my next question. Bobby Sherman? You went over with his crowd?

A - Not the first two shows. We had to figure how to go over. We were doing "Buy For Me The Rain" because it's Bobby Sherman's favorite song that we do. "Oh, okay. We'll listen." We did another fun song and said, "How many people want to see Bobby Sherman?" The audience of 3,000 - 4,000 would cheer. "You got your cameras ready? You want us to test them?" We'd get everybody to take a picture with a flashcube in those days. "Okay, on the count of three." A hall with 4,000 people in it and 3,000 flashcubes may go off all at once and make everybody scream. (laughs) So, we became friendly to the Bobby Sherman audience and several of the shows we got an encore. Then we were worried. "Oh, no. The Bobby Sherman audience likes us." But they're just people and we had to entertain them. Most of 'em were nine to seventeen years old. That was about three fourths of the audience and the rest of 'em were their mothers.

Q - Did anybody in the band ever protest when they heard they'd be opening for Bobby Sherman?

A - No. It was work. It was a job. We got a tour. "Oh, cool. Okay, we'll go out and do it." We were doing rental cars and do Fly/Drive and all good halls. He sold out everywhere. We got some good out of it. There were some dates on the front and back, and what I mean is we'd do our own job, maybe play New York's Bottom Line and then go to a Bobby Sherman show. At the end of the tour we'd play something else and go home and wait for the next trip. The next trip would be a festival somewhere where we'd play with Maybelle Carter and Doc Watson. (laughs) And the next thing would be, "Oh, we had a show with B.B. King." (laughs)

Q - You lived in a great time to be part of a recording and touring band.

A - Oh, yeah. See, back in those days when there were only two or three radio stations you would hear on the radio, "That was The Statler Brothers. Just before that we played Aretha Franklin. Coming up we have a new song by The Beatles and we're going to play that 'Dueling Banjos' pretty soon." It was everything, and people liked everything. So now that you have the traditional Blues station and all the fractured, specialty stations of syndicated radio and subscription radio, XM/Sirius, you don't have to listen to something for an hour to get to that Bluegrass cut because you're on the Bluegrass channel. (laughs)

Q - And now you have your own radio show, don't you? Is it a talk show?

A - I have a radio show on Sirius/XM called Acoustic Traveler and that is a show where I only play people that I either know or have run across, street performers sometimes or I've played on their demo or album or people that I'm connected to. And it's in its tenth year and I haven't run out yet. I can go from Michael Martin Murphey's "Carolina In The Pines" to something by Leon Russell. Leon and I were really good friends. In fact, I recorded a song in his basement and it went really well.

Q - Do you interview people who you've played with on this show as well?

A - I've only interviewed my mother. (laughs)

Q - That's a good start and an important interview as well.

A - That was about eight years ago. I assemble it here, do the voice tracks and sent it off with the music.

Q - The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band were the first group to play twenty-eight sold out shows in the Soviet Union in 1977. How did the Russians react to the music you were playing and had they heard the music before?

A - They had never heard of the band. They heard a little bit from <>Voice Of America radio, but every town in Russia had only one radio station. And you would buy a radio that had just a volume knob. You'd turn it on and there'd be the radio station. That's the way they controlled the information. So there were some smuggled albums, but they weren't Dirt Band albums. I signed a Temptations album and an Aretha Franklin album and they were really old, but in general they were excited about the fact that it was an American group that made its own decisions, made its own music and was an anarchic kind of organization. (laughs) Do you know what 1-4-5 means when you're talking about chords?

Q - It's a chord progression.

A - If you're in the key of G, the one chord is a G, the four chord is a C, then the fourth note in the scale, the fifth chord is a D. If you play an E minor it's the 6th minor, it's the 6th note of the scale, the 6th minor chord. I did about five lectures in music schools. At one of them in particular I was explaining how a Nashville session works with the number system. I played "This Land Is Your Land", 1-1-1-4-4, 1-1-1-5-5, 5-5-5-1-1 and so forth. When I said they write the numbers down on a chart, the musician would play it, the person would sing it. "Well, what do the musicians play?" I said, "They have a chart in front of them and they sit there with their guitar, bass or whatever and play along with the chart." "Well, what do the musicians play?"

Q - Oh, they didn't understand.

A - Right. I said, "They play whatever they feel like playing, whatever they want to," and the talk went around the room. I got a standing ovation. I said, "What's going on?" to the translator. "They're astonished they can do what they want." (laughs) Such a country. A free country. That was a shock, talking about the number system and recording in Nashville and the simplicity of it.

Q - President George W. Bush introduced the group as the "Nitty Ditty Nitty Gritty Great Bird."

A - (laughs)

Q - Have you ever thought of using that as a title for one of your albums? It's kind of catchy.

A - (laughs) That was a nice thing, that he liked that song "Send A Little Rain". I never thought I'd miss George Bush, but I sure do now. (laughs)

Q - Yes, who can forget him saying "Is our children learning?"

A - (laughs) As far as politics, I go along with Mark Twain in 1858. He said in the San Francisco Examiner, "Politicians and diapers. You change them often for the same reasons."

Q - You left The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band in 1986. You left to do what?

A - Actually '87. I was getting divorced. I had six kids. Life changes were happening and I had to deal with it and I felt like the band and what I had given to it was part of the cause of that. I had other things I had to figure out. Then I came back in 2000. The manager of the group wrote all of us a letter. The manager had become Chuck Morris, who was in Denver. When my brother quit managing I told 'em the only person we should have manage us is Chuck Morris. We called him that night. Chuck did a great job for probably fifteen years. Chuck was responsible for getting me in the group. They were kind of going through a doldrum in the '90s and that's when I re-mastered the "Circle" album, and had it coming out and we went out and started playing again.

Q - I think what you do for a living is kind of a hard life with everything you have to put up with to get that time onstage. So, what is it you like about playing music?

A - I have a couple of e-mail fans. One is talking about, "They made me work a split shift. They're killing me." He's sixty-two years old and he has to work. He's a very nice guy. He plays Blues harmonica. He says the hours he's having to put in on a split shift are really horrible. I know that he's not wishy-washy. I drive around the country and see someone in a 7-11 working. They might be a guitar player, but I'm pursuing my dream. I'm living the idea of what I want to do. What keeps me doing this? the audience just seems to be getting better. (laughs)

Official Websites: www.NittyGritty.com and www.JohnMcEuen.com

© Gary James. All rights reserved.



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