Gary James' Interview With A Man Whose Mother
Was A Classmate of John Lennon and Stuart Sutcliffe
Edward Chapman



Edward Chapman is the son of British painter Margaret Chapman. Margaret Chapman was a classmate of John Lennon and Stuart Sutcliffe at the Liverpool College Of Art. Margaret Chapman became quite well known for her paintings in England. It is that time period when her contemporaries were John Lennon and Stuart Sutcliffe that we talked to her son, Edward Chapman about.

Q - Ed, your mother was a very famous artist in England. How successful was she?

A - Certainly for the time, she was famous, from the Northern English school. There's a famous artist who was fifty years older than her actually, born in the late 19th century, called L.S. Lowry. He painted scenes similar to my mother's, or they looked like that. Lowry was a very famous British artist. My mother was selling for the same price as Lowry in the 1970s for a number of years and did very, very well and sold a lot all over the world and in the United States as well. She probably sold in more than fifty countries all over the world. Her prints are very popular. I went over to my keyboardist's house when I was sixteen to see if he wanted to join the band. His house was covered with my mother's work. His parents were probably big fans. She was very well-known. She was on TV occasionally and in the press. I think she did pretty well.

Q - Your mother went to the Liverpool College Of Art, which means to me that's all they taught there was art.

A - Yes. She was there for five years, which to me is quite a lot of time to be studying art. It really covers painting and all aspects of art. She was noted to be particularly good in painting. The teachers, the lecturers said "she's better than us at painting". So, that's quite a compliment.

Q - Did she ever tell you whether she thought John or Stu had a future in art, or even music?

A - She was a month younger than John. She was born November 18th, 1940. Stu was born in June, 1940, so he was older than John, which probably explains John always looking up to Stu. But to your question Gary, my mother knew Stu was very good at art. He was a real talent. I remember my mother saying, he said in technical detail, "Don't be put off by drawing a figure and having an edge to the thing. In real life people don't have edges to them." But, you can imagine he was going slightly abstract. That was one thing my mother said to me, which is clear in her work. She thought that was good advice from Stuart. She remembered it. As for John, dare I say she didn't really think John produced anything of note artistically, which perhaps is being a bit polite on her behalf. He didn't take his art seriously at college, the fact that he was late for lessons, didn't have the materials, that sort of thing. My mother, to put it kindly, was not that impressed with John's art, his presentation. Maybe he had the ability, but it didn't come to the fore, in her opinion, at the very least. There were better artists there.

Q - Did she ever talk about John's personality?

A - What she told me is around college John was your heart sank if you had to pass him in the corridor. As a young woman, she was fair game. It was open season for John to make some very quick-witted put down, not necessarily nasty or vulgar, something you might cringe about. "Oh, there's Lennon. He's going to say something and I'll have to react or not." It just made you feel uncomfortable, not in a horrific way, a venomous tone with some acid barb put-down. She'd never seen John on his own. He came down to Gambier Terrace one day when my mother was living right by the Art College. Stuart lived there and two other people lived there. John arrives and he says, "Hello. Is Stuart in?" My mum says, "No, he's not. He won't be long." And then sort of reluctantly, "Do you want to wait?" And John said, "Thank-you very much." My mother said, "I'll make you a cup of tea." This Lennon. What's he going to be like? The outspoken young student in our college. And he was quite the opposite. He was a gentleman, charming, polite, eloquent while they had this cup of tea, waiting for Stuart. John, in the course of their conversation says, "I've actually been doing some writing," which he had with him. And my mother kindly said, "Would you like me to read it?" And she read it and said, "Oh, this is really interesting writing, John. It reminds me of the writer J.D. Salinger." John said, "Who's that? I've never heard of J.D. Salinger." My mother said, "Well, hang on. I'll go and get you a book." The book was Catcher In The Rye and she leant it to John and he never returned it. Apparently he went on and said to her he really enjoyed reading it. That's as far as I know about what happened with that little anecdote. Of course we know that Mark Chapman was quite interested in the book. My mother was called Margaret Duxbury and she met my father who was a later student at the college. When she married she became Margaret Chapman. Her painting name was M. Chapman and we called her Marg. So, it's almost like Mark Chapman. The connection with Catcher In The Rye is quite unusual I would say.

Q - Did your mother compete with Stu for the best painter in class? Who won?

A - I don't know, to be honest. That wouldn't be something she told me. She wasn't one to blow her own trumpet, as they say. She was very admiring of Stuart's ability, but she certainly proved herself in painting while at college and later on. So, there would be two stars of the class that were painting 'cause they did all matters of activity, sculpture and various things. They would probably have a live subject coming in and draw those figures from life study and then do still life as well and then do field trips to do landscapes. I'm guessing all this. I'm not guessing all of it, but that's generally the nature of it. It's a tried and tested way of doing things for art, isn't it?

Q - Did she ever express an interest in becoming the girlfriend of John?

A - No. He wasn't necessarily her cup of tea. She liked John. She got to like him very much. He was good fun like a lot of people would say. Bright man obviously. I don't know exactly Gary, but she was going out with Stuart. So, they were dating as far as I know. Therefore Stuart would be seen as John's friend. He was less appealing because he was the silly friend of Stu perhaps. But someone not to be ignored, John, and I'm sure everyone would say that, my mother included.

Q - Did she live in the building where John, Paul and George would rehearse?

A - Yes.

Q - Did she ever remark about the songs she heard them singing and playing?

A - Yes. John lived there for a while. He was invited and my mother was asked, "Can John move in?" by Stuart, and my mother said "Okay, he can." It's a big enough place. Paul and George used to come 'round. She didn't really talk specifically about the music. I supposed they'd be in a different room playing the music and she would be busy or not interested dare I say. When my mother was say, twenty-two, you've got Paul and George who were younger. Girls don't find that interesting. Paul was seventeen. George was sixteen. They're just young lads, nice as they might be. They're just doing their music. My mother was not a great music fan, probably a big Dylan fan, getting me into Dylan obviously later on.

Q - She was into Skiffle, wasn't she?

A - She would know a good tune. As far as following the fledgling Beatles, no. She did go to The Cavern, but she never saw the band there. I think The Beatles were sort of a little bit after her art days dare I say, perhaps coming towards the end of her time there (at Art School) and then she had a boyfriend, my father.

Q - You really had to pry your mother about her time at Art college and her time with Stu and John, didn't you? She didn't talk freely about it, did she?

A - No, she really wouldn't. She would never take that trip down memory lane. Perhaps after a couple of glasses of wine if I brought it up, and probably it would be me or my siblings, she'd then say with a smile on her face, "Oh yes, Stuart was such a nice guy. He was a very self-effacing, talented and funny (guy) and tell little stories. Never that many. I haven't got that many to tell." Don't forget, he was her boyfriend and he died at the age of twenty-one. He was obviously with Astrid (Kirchherr) by then, but they remained on good terms I think. Perhaps it was a sad thing to bring up and John as well dying. She didn't go on and on about them. I don't think she'd mind me saying this. This is only what she told me. I can only say what I've heard.

Q - Where was your mother when she heard the news that John had been murdered?

A - We were living in Lancashire, a town she was born in, south of Blackburn, named in "A Day In The Life", in a little town called Darwen. In the early morning here we heard it on the radio. Overnight it would probably be one o'clock in the morning New York time, seven o'clock here. It was very shocking news. Pretty unusual, a musician being assassinated.

Q - How old were you when you heard the news?

A - I'd be ten years old. I'm now fifty-three. I remember it. We knew John. We knew The Beatles. We had "Sgt. Pepper" lying around the house, not the whole collection of records.

Q - Would Paul have remembered your mother?

A - I would like to think he would remember my mother. Her name was Duxbury, known as "Duckie" by everybody. "Duckie" means honey, as you would say sugar to your loved one. It's a term of endearment in England, in the Northwest of England. So, Paul would remember "Duckie" 'cause she was an older woman then. I sent a print to Paul's office. It was a picture set 'round Abbey Road, streets around Abbey Road. It's called Musical Routes. And Paul got number one in the edition and I put a note in it that very briefly mentioned that my mother lived in Gambier Terrace. I didn't know how I could sort of contact him. I sort of leave him alone really.

© Gary James. All rights reserved.

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