Gary James' Interview With Personal Manager / Record Producer
Joel Diamond



Joel Diamond is one of the most celebrated names in the music business, and it's easy to see why. He's managed and/or produced a host of some of the biggest artists in the world, including Jack Jones, Van McCoy, Mark Wahlberg and Benny Mardones. He's produced and/or written thirty-six Gold and Platinum records and charted over fifty-four recordings on the Billboard charts. What an incredible resume that is! And there's much more! Joel Diamond talked with us about his career and the people he's met along the way.

Q - Okay Joel, is there a record business today and if so, what is it and where would you find it?

A - Good question. Of course there's a record business today. I'll tell you something, as long as people love music and listen to music, there will always be a record business. It's just taken a little different configuration from when we knew it. Obviously it's streaming, it's YouTube, it's Spotify, it's Apple. It's a whole different kind of business. But there's absolutely still a record business today, and as we both know, I believe it was fifteen million vinyl records were sold last year (2018) which hasn't been that way since the '80s or '90s. And as I said, the record business is different than it used to be, but the same. At one time, believe it or not, I produced a record with Uncle Miltie, Milton Berle. I'll never forget him saying to me, "What's new is old and what's old is new."

Q - That's true.

A - It's very, very true.

Q - It's cyclical. It goes round and round.

A - (laughs) It goes round and round. I believe there's been several articles in Billboard and other magazines recently where the song is starting to come back a little bit rather than just beats and Rap and Hip-Hop right now, but I obviously come from the day of the song.

Q - Then you'll understand perfectly when I say I don't understand what today's singers are singing. I hope that doesn't date me, but it's true. I don't know what the singers are singing on American Idol.

A - Yeah. It's very funny you say that. I was asked the other day to write a little tribute to somebody who's not well in the hospital and they're asking a friend they know just to send them for a hundred days a different person a haiku. I'll be honest with you, you can look it up on Google, I knew what it was, I didn't know what it was. But here's where I'm coming full-circle on that; when you write haiku it's five syllables, seven syllables, five syllables and they're actually three lines that really are not connected and don't make any sense. (laughs) So, getting back to your question about today's music, when you listen to Hip-Hop and Rap it's almost like that's where they're non sequiturs and one line really doesn't follow another, and as you said, you can't understand them at all.

Q - And they're not really singing the way we understand singing to be. They're talking.

A - Yeah. Well, obviously it's an oxymoron when you think about Rap music because you're right. It's not really music. It's messages and some of the messages obviously are quite cryptic. I'll tell you the good news that almost every video that's out right now, every record, every song has an accompanying lyrics video. So I guess the normal ear, most of us, thank God they have the lyrics video 'cause then you can really listen and see what the heck they're saying.

Q - But not just to criticize the rappers of today, singer Mick Jagger? He can't sing. Singer Bob Dylan. He can't sing. And I could go on and on.

A - Right.

Q - And so, when we have those TV shows like American Idol or The Voice, where judges will criticize a contestant's pitch, in the real world of Pop music there are countless singers who really can't sing. There are other factors that come into play. And of all of the guys, you would know better than anybody.

A - Yeah, but Gary, it's always been that way. You mention Bob Dylan. Can you imagine the first time Bob Dylan walked into Clive Davis's office. What the hell was that?

Q - Can you imagine Bob Dylan just starting out going in front of Simon Cowell?

A - (laughs)

Q - What would he say to him?

A - Exactly.

Q - So, the idea of having this perfect voice in Pop music is simply not true.

A - Right. But again, I think it's always been like that. If you look back in the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, there's always been the artists out there that don't necessarily have a great voice, but are very, very successful because of other characteristics or personalities.

Q - Right. Plus, in the case of Jagger and Dylan, they write their own material. That's what you have to do, write original songs, besides putting it across and being an entertainer.

A - No question about it. Also the ability, and you talk about a big plus to be able to communicate with your audience, both live and on record.

Q - And be able to communicate with business people like you. That's important too.

A - There's so much that goes into it. I get calls, videos, MP3s constantly, every single week. And it's so important to meet the people because I call it CD3, Charisma Deficit Disorder. I don't care how good the artist is, if they can't communicate, if they don't have the charisma, personally for me, I can't get interested in them.

Q - And charisma is something you really can't define. You either have it or you don't.

A - You're absolutely correct.

Q - I don't think you can learn it.

A - It's like the word "charm." Are they charming? You can't define it. And either they have it or they don't have it.

Q - Since you're a record producer, I always think about the time The Beatles were in the studio with their producer George Martin. He said something to the effect, "Is there anything you don't like?" and George Harrison said, "Your tie."

A - (laughs)

Q - That's funny. I wonder how that would've gone over with an American record producer. George Harrison and George Martin had a sense of humor. That's funny stuff.

A - Of course it is. I'll tell you the funniest story I know first hand that when somebody said, "I don't like it." Remember Buddy Rich, the best drummer that ever lived?

Q - Oh, sure.

A - Buddy was a very, very good friend of mine. I'll never forget a story he told me that actually hit all the newspapers. He was performing in Nashville, doing a concert. Right after the concert he collapsed. They thought he was having a heart attack. EMT rushed in, took him in the ambulance and took him to the hospital. They're rolling him in the gurney down the hallway. They're walking next to him and the doctor says to him, "Mr. Rich, is there anything you're allergic to?" And he didn't miss a beat. He said, "Yeah, Country music." (laughs)

Q - That's funny!

A - Can you imagine saying that in Nashville? It hit all the newspapers. I thought it was very funny.

Q - Did the doctor laugh?

A - Oh, yeah. He had a sense of humor, thank God. (laughs)

Q - Do you have what they call "ears"? Can you hear something in a singer's voice that someone else cannot hear?

A - I celebrate my fiftieth year in the business this month. (April 2019) I started off in music publishing and in music publishing you're constantly listening to songs. So I have developed I think a very good ear over the years of hearing hit songs and I've proven it over and over and over again. But, everyone has a knack for a certain kind of song, the AC/DC, Journey type recordings. I really don't know what a song or group or artist really sounds like as much as I do a real artist or even the R&B stuff where they have great melodies, great lyrics and great hooks. That's what I listen for.

Q - If you're in the right mood you can appreciate all types of music. Maybe you're not in the right mood to listen to Hard Rock in the morning, but you could listen to something softer. Maybe at nine or ten o'clock you could listen to a rockin' song. Would you agree with that?

A - There's a cute, little anecdotal story that goes along with that if I may tell you.

Q - Go right ahead.

A - When I started producing Engelbert Humperkinck, I produced "After The Lovin'" with him, which is the biggest record he had in his career. When I produced "After The Lovin'" there was nothing on the radio that sounded like it. Not even close. There was nothing of that ilk. At that time it was The Beatles, Rock 'n' Roll, Hard Rock. There are some producers I call guns for hire. They produce a record, move on to the next. Keep on moving on. When I produce an artist it's sort of like I marry them and I nurse that record through sickness and health so to speak. When I produced "After The Lovin'" I believed in it so much, for days, weeks and months at a time, I would be on the telephone calling radio stations trying to get people to play it. I honestly knew that the big Top 40 stations were not going to play it. So I was going after the secondary, tertiary, tiny little stations and I was getting a couple of people to play it. Circling back to what you said, you have to be in a certain mood, there was a promotion guy up in Buffalo (New York) named Jerry Myers who was like the kingpin. Anything you wanted on KBW, which is a huge Top 40, 50,000 watt station up there that broke records, you had to go through Jerry Myers. I didn't even know him at the time. He was driving home one night, and this is a true story from his lips. He had been listening to Rock 'n' Roll all day. He put this radio station on in Buffalo that was as MOR (Middle Of The Road) as you can get. It's one of those stations that I convinced, not convinced 'cause she loved Englebert at the time, the PD (Program Director), he heard "After The Lovin'" on that station while he was driving home. Jerry also had real good ears and he said, "Man, that's a great record." The next morning, and again he was only listening to that station because he was burned out, he wanted to hear something a little easier on the ears. But, he loved the song. The next morning he calls some record stores and he said, "Just by chance, have you been getting any phone calls asking for 'After The Lovin'' by Englebert Humperdinck?" The record store said, "Actually, we have, but we have no idea where to find them to get it or who put it out." So, Jerry Myers went to KBW, which is the monster station in Buffalo, and he walked in there and said, "I'm not asking you if you're going to put this record on, I'm asking you when you're going to put this record on." And they put it on rotation and the phones lit up and blew off the hooks. That was the beginning of "After The Lovin'" and every other big, big Top 40 station around the country just fell into place. From Buffalo it went to RKO in Boston and the same thing happened there. It just blew it off the hooks. Then it went to New York and Miami, QAM. It's funny you said that story and that's the way that story happened.

Q - I noticed you studied Business and Psychology in college. Those would be two subject matters you'd want to study if you were gong into the music business, right?

A - Right. You really did your homework.

Q - I also noticed you watched American Bandstand religiously. I too would watch and try to figure out what's going on here? I loved that show.

A - Well, you talk about American Bandstand, that was my passion in life. When I was fifteen, sixteen, there was nothing in life that I was more focused on. I knew every kid's name on the show that danced.

Q - It was fascinating, wasn't it?

A - Well, it was beyond fascinating. And just by chance as we speak I've just developed a script and I've got exclusive rights to the regular dancers from American Bandstand from the '50s. Those kids were bigger stars on the show than Frankie Avalon, Neil Sedaka. They used to get thousands of pieces of letter every week.

Q - It was only later that I found out that Dick Clark made those kids dress up. Those guys had to wear suits and ties or they didn't get on the air. That was Dick Clark's way of keeping American Bandstand on TV. Did you know that?

A - Of course I knew it. As a matter of fact, I've done extensive interviews with all those kids who were dancing on the show. The most popular ones there were, were Kenny and Arlene, Bob and Justine. These are the kids that I idolized when I was growing up in Passaic, New Jersey. My entire life was revolved around every day of American Bandstand. It was almost like a movie. I was sort of one of them, but I wasn't, if you know what I mean. I always fantasized about being on the show and being one of the regulars on the show.

Q - Did you ever go and see the show in person?

A - Never. Once in a while some of the kids would be bussed into Passaic for some of the record hops. There was a friend of mine who owned a record store downtown who sponsored the record hops. I'll never forget he said to me, "C'mon over. I have a surprise for you." So, I went over to his house. He opened up his basement door and all the kids were practicing downstairs in his basement. They were dancing. There was Kenny and Arlene, Bob and Justine. Those were all the names I knew on the show. There they were in his basement. But the best part of the story; cut to thirty years later. I'm already pretty successful. I'm living in my penthouse on Central Park South with all the accoutrements. I was running SONY Music at the time. One night at 11:30 at night I get a phone call. I said, "Hello." "Is this Joel Diamond?" I said, "Yes." She said, "This is Arlene Sullivan." I couldn't believe Arlene Sullivan was calling me. Somebody that met her accidentally put her up to calling me. I've got to tell you something. I thought I died and went to Heaven. Here I was already successful, thirty years later. So I said to her, "Arlene, I'm coming down to Philadelphia to record at Sigma Sound Studios next week. Would you have dinner with me?" And she said, "Absolutely." That week was the longest week of my life. I couldn't wait. I finished the recording session and did it with Arlene Sullivan. It was a dream come true.

Q - Did you ever meet Dick Clark? You must have.

A - Not only did I meet Dick Clark, but about twelve years ago (2007) I was co-producer with Dick Clark for a show on CBS called The Family Film Awards.

Q - I guess you would've met Dick Clark given the circles you traveled in?

A - Again, but only later on. In my childhood all these people and avenues of life are only a dream for me. My entire life was laid out for me by my father. I never left home 'til I was twenty-six years old. My father said, "You finish high school and go to college," and I did that in New Jersey. I went to Rider College in Trenton. Then he said, "When you finish college you'll go into the Army and do your stint in the Army," which I did, Fort Dix. Again, I never left New Jersey. "Then you go into the family business," which I did, selling insurance and real estate.

Q - And you sold a lot of insurance! A million dollars worth of insurance.

A - Yeah. I actually made the Million Dollar Roundtable.

Q - Good training for the business you would eventually find yourself in.

A - It could not have been better timing. My father was extremely goal oriented. One of the requirements before I went into his business was to take the Dale Carnegie course. He had one of the biggest selling books at the time, How To Win Friends And Influence People.

Q - And one of the things you had to do was get in front of a group and talk. Was public speaking a problem for you then?

A - Oh, back in those days, yes. Big time. I was always great one on one. Public speaking had always been a problem for me. It's a little bit to this day, but I've conquered it quite a bit. Whenever I get an opportunity, which has been quite a bit in the last couple of years, to get up in front of people, even though I don't like to do it, I force myself to do it.

Q - Did you discover Benny Mardones coming off a bus in Savage, Maryland?

A - Absolutely.

Q - This is reminiscent of Bob Marcucci discovering Fabian.

A - (laughs)

Q - You actually saw Benny Mardones getting off a bus?

A - I didn't actually see him getting off. That's actually very funny. I got the vision in my head seeing him come off the bus. I was running MRC, Mercury Records at the time.

Q - Alright.

A - Which is a whole other story how that happened. Anyway, Tommy Mottola was my assistant. He was my assistant for two and a half years actually. I had a staff of writers. It was almost like the old Brill Building. You walked down the hallway at MCR (Mercury Record Company) and I set up offices on each side of the hallway. Each writer or each pair of writers would have their own little space. I allowed them to create the space the way they liked it. Some of them were dark. Some of them were light. Some were painted bright. I let them create their own thing. One day my secretary said to me, "There's somebody out here who would like to meet you named Benny Mardones." I said, "Who's Benny Mardones?" "Well, he says he's a great singer. He'd like to meet you." I said, "Okay." I was pretty open in those days. I still am actually about meeting new people. So, Benny came in and we had a conversation. You talk about charisma. I mean he is full of charisma. He is Mr. Charisma.

Q - Yeah, he can talk!

A - Oh, my God. And not only talk but he's funny as hell. He's got a great sense of humor. He's telling me, "I'm gonna be a star." He told me, "I just got in from Savage, Maryland and I got off the bus within hours. This is my first stop because I saw your music company listed." I said, "Okay." He said, "Is it okay if I sing something for you?" I said, "Knock yourself out." And he started singing, a cappella obviously. I just kind of knew immediately. You just feel it in your gut, feel it in your bones. I mean this guy had a great voice, he engaged whoever he was singing in front of. He just sucked you right in. Drew you right in. I said, "Benny, that's amazing. Have you ever written a song?" He said, "No, I've never written a song before." I said, "I have a writer here named Alan Miles. Alan really, really needs a good lyricist." Alan was basically a keyboard player. He was writing music. I said, "I'm going to put you together with Alan and then you can go do your own demos 'cause your voice is incredible." And that's the way the whole thing happened. Twenty-five dollars a week I started him off. And he became my exclusive writer. I got him his first record deal also, believe it or not. There was a label called White Whale Records and I produced a record with him with a song that was always my favorite when I was a kid growing up. I always wanted to produce a song, not that I was a great producer. I was just starting out at the time. But we did a song called "Please Say You Want Me". It was originally done by The Schoolboys in the '50s. I brought it up to CBS for distribution and they said, "Wow!" It was really a killer, killer record. It still is to this day.

Q - As a staff writer did Benny Mardones ever write a song that became a hit?

A - Well, the first song wasn't a hit. The first song I got recorded for him was by Brenda Lee. It was called "Too Heavy To Carry". It was a really great song. None of the songs he wrote became big hits. Obviously the Holy Grail became "Into The Night", which was Top Ten twice. And I just recently recorded "Into The Night" with Benny for a third time. It's really an amazing recording.

Q - That hasn't been released yet, has it?

A - No. It has not been officially released yet.

Q - Back in 1980, people were talking the Three Bs: Bruce Springsteen, Bob Seger and Benny Mardones. Benny Mardones had "Into The Night" and what happened? Why didn't his career take off like Springsteen's and Seger's?

A - Well, certainly I think you and I both agree it should have because again, not only did he have a great voice and we made some great records together as well, he also had that charisma factor going for him. He was a great personality. You've seen him perform, right?

Q - I have.

A - He's an incredible performer. I mean, he really gives it his all on stage. There's very few performers that are that good. Before I give you my answer, what was his answer to why he didn't become one of those major names?

Q - In any interview I've done with him, I don't believe he addressed that question because I never asked him. I had heard he went into a record company's office and threw a computer out the window.

A - (laughs)

Q - Talk about how to win friends and influence people! I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't believe that's the way to act. I also believe he had some problems with drugs, which ones I have no idea. Did those two things prevent Benny Mardones from going forward?

A - Well, the first half of what you said certainly did. I didn't quite hear that story, but I know for a fact when he was on Polydor, where he had a lot of success, he got into an argument with one of the major executives there and he literally turned the guy's desk over in front of him. He made mistakes like that. As far as the drug part goes, I don't know if that held him back, only because again, look at somebody like Jagger. It certainly didn't hold his career back. (laughs)

Q - My guess would be Jagger was not a recreational drug user. He used whatever he used, if he did use something, to help him with those high energy performances. Natural energy can only take you so far, especially if you're on tour night after night after night.

A - Well, you're absolutely right. A lot of people use it for, I hate to say positive creative reasons. Another good example of that is Tommy James, who's a really good friend of mine. I used to produce him. I've known Tommy for forty years. Tommy told me that if it had not been for drugs he could have never in a million years written something like "Crimson And Clover", "Crystal Blue Persuasion" and those kinds of songs. It could never have happened. Now, did he use it for positive reasons? Yeah. I don't know if he did it for performances on stage or not, but I don't think that was a major thing for Benny of why it held him back. As you succinctly mentioned, it was more the Dale Carnegie syndrome: How To Win Friends And Influence People.

Q - Should Benny have even been arguing with a record company executive? Isn't that the job of management? Were you his manager at the time?

A - I've been his manager periodically throughout his career, not at that particular time.

Q - He's had quite a few managers.

A - Yeah. But Benny is also a hands-on guy. He wants to find out why things are happening or not happening. I don't exactly remember what the issue was that he was upset about, but he took it on full-blown himself.

Q - Go back to Tommy James for a minute. He couldn't have written songs like "Crimson And Clover" and "Crystal Blue Persuasion" if he wasn't on drugs. I don't understand.

A - At that time a lot of drugs were hallucinatory drugs.

Q - I thought he was on uppers.

A - I don't know what he was on. I mean, when you think about "Crimson And Clover" and "Crystal Blue Persuasion", they don't really mean anything. They're really like streams of words put together. They don't mean anything. I guess you have to be in a semi-hallucinatory state to be able to write words like that.

Q - And they do have nice melodies.

A - Oh, he was an amazing melody writer, yeah. Great melodies.

Q - What project or projects are you working on today?

A - I'm working on a project with Rebecca Holden. She was the star of Nighrider along with David Hasselhoff. As it turns out, about two years ago I was with my partner Rudy Perez down in Miami. He just won Latino Producer Of The Decade. I mean, he's produced everybody. Rudy and I are good friends and we're partners in all our projects. I had a song that I created with Rudy called "Dreams Come True", which is based on Pachelbel's Canon, the classical piece. So I said to Rudy, "I'm going to go in and cut it with Rebecca because she has an amazing voice and I'd like to make a duet out of it." I said, "Do you have anybody down there?" He said, "As a matter of fact, I'm working with Jon Secada right now." So, I said, "Wow! Do you think Jon would do it?" When Jon heard the song he loved it. So we've created this duet with Rebecca and Jon Secada called "Dreams Come True" and it has to this day taken on a life of its own. We've gotten literally over fifty million views on the song. It's become, on YouTube, the number one most requested and popular wedding song in the world, which is crazy. It's the best kept secret out there right now. So, after we did that duet I said, "You know something? I've worked with so many great artists over the years, let's do an album of duets with Rebecca as the center piece and I'll get some great artists to record with her," everyone of which has sold over a million records and we are 95% finished with the album. So, I got her singing duets with, in addition to Jon Secada, Trini Lopez, Gary Puckett, Tony Orlando, Bill Medley from The Righteous Brothers, Steve Tyrell, Englebert, Jack Jones, Little Anthony. We got fourteen, fifteen artists on there. All million selling artists. The album is amazing. We're just putting the final touches together and we're going to be selling it with a magnificent piece of jewelry, which has never been done before.

Q - Joel, you have the Midas touch. Everything you touch turns to gold!

A - I don't know about that, but I'm out there every day, trying to come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things.

Q - That's what keeps you going.

A - Oh, absolutely. You know the expression, whoever gets to the bowl gets all the gold. The followers just find it empty. So, the concept I have of this jewelry I think could really change everything.

Official Website: www.JoelDiamond.com

© Gary James. All rights reserved.

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