Gary James' Interview With
Mike Berry







His first hit record was "Tribute To Buddy Holly". He performed at The Cavern Club where he met The Beatles. He appeared on Thank Your Lucky Stars. His career has lasted over fifty years and the stories he has to tell! The gentleman we are talking about is Mr. Mike Berry.

Q - You were 20 years old when you signed to a recording deal.

A - No. I was younger than that. 20? Blimey.

Q - How old were you then?

A - 18 at the oldest.

Q - What did you know about making a record at that point?

A - Nothing.

Q - Did you think it was going to be fun or hard work?

A - Didn't have a clue. It was a mystery to me. I didn't have any idea what went on.

Q - When you got into the studio did you find it easy going or rough going?

A - I just sang. It was easy. If you know anything about Joe Meek's studio it wasn't anything like a typical recording studio. He lived in a flat and he converted his flat into a studio. He lived there. He also had different rooms that would've been bedrooms had there been a family living there. One bedroom was the control room. Another bedroom was the recording room where the band would go, the drums and so on. It was all quite small. So, if he had any strings or anything to put on the record they would have to stand on the stairs going down to the lower level or go into the bathroom, on into the hall. They used to be spread around, these people. He would mic them all up and record that. That was Joe Meek who did "Telstar". That was the main thing he was known for in America.

Q - It sounds like the situation you're describing would have been more relaxed than if you'd have gone into Capitol Records studios or RCA recording studios.

A - Oh, I think so. It was like being in somebody's house.

Q - You've said the kids who went to The Cavern would all sing along to the songs the bands would play. That being the case, could you even hear the songs the bands were playing?

A - The bands were amplified and loud. The kids didn't all sing, but a lot of them knew the songs. They wanted to hear the band. So they didn't all sing. I don't know where you got that, all singing. They just used to know the words and sing the songs. They always used to come there in The Cavern every lunchtime, which was in English money, six pence or two and half pence in new money in England. It's probably a couple of cents in the States or a few cents, maybe five or ten cents to listen to The Beatles or The Merseybeats, Gerry And The Pacemakers. All these different bands. A lot of these bands came up from London 'cause The Cavern was in Liverpool which is two hundred miles North of London. I'm not sure The Rolling Stones ever played The Cavern, but The Beatles definitely did on a regular basis and I did. If you Google "The Cavern" you'll see they have a name on a brick of every artist that's ever played there. My name's on there. All the other artists that played there are on bricks, separate bricks which were all part of The Cavern.

Q - You were on the same bill as The Beatles at The Cavern, weren't you?

A - Oh, yeah. No, actually I met The Beatles there. In fact, Paul McCartney gave me a lift back to my hotel in his car. They weren't known then and we had a hit record. We had this "Tribute To Buddy Holly" record and we also played with The Beatles where we were top of the bill in a northern town. Preston I think it was. Not long after that, The Beatles had gotten their break and they went down to London and they did "Love Me Do" and the rest is history. I think they're the best band ever, The Beatles.

Q - I would agree. They were the whole package. They had it all.

A - It was the songs. Every single was an absolute winner, even all the "B" sides and the album tracks. They were all terrific songs. Paul McCartney and John Lennon writing as a team, even those two guys on their own as we all know wrote wonderful songs. They had a great talent.

Q - "Meet The Beatles" album sounds a lot different than "Abbey Road".

A - I remember hearing "I Want To Hold Your Hand" on the radio and I loved it. I had it as loud as I could get it. It wasn't very loud in those days and I was driving a Volkswagen Beatle in Wimbledon where they have the tennis. There's a road there and I nearly crashed my car. I got so excited about "I Want To Hold Your Hand". Fantastic! So exciting. They were the best. Absolutely the best.

Q - What were The Beatles like at The Cavern? Were they playing covers or originals?

A - They might have done the odd song of theirs, but they weren't known. I did a TV show with The Beatles when they'd had "Love Me Do", but I had a couple of bigger hits than they'd had, so I was on this show with them. They were about to do "Please Please Me", which was their first number one, on this show.

Q - That was on Thank Your Lucky Stars?

A - That's the one. We were in the canteen, chatting 'cause we knew each other from meeting up at The Cavern and playing on different gigs before they became famous and even at that point they weren't that famous. The kids loved them, but they only had "Love Me Do". John Lennon offered to write me a song 'cause they weren't known for their songwriting then. I didn't think anything more of it. I missed out. I would've had the Billy J. Kramer song "Bad To Me" or "Do You Want To Know A Secret". He was really enthusiastic. "We'll write you song." He was really keen. Of course my manager and I were there chatting to him, to John Lennon at this point and we just didn't know that they were writers and so we thought nothing of it. We didn't sort of say no. Soon as "Please Please Me" was on the TV it raced up to number one and that was it. They didn't have time to speak or see anybody. So, they couldn't write me a song anyway, unless we'd gotten a promise at the time. But as I say, they weren't known for their writing prowess.

Q - Seems to me John and Paul should've been able to come up with another song for you. The Stones recorded their song, "I Wanna Be Your Man".

A - Yeah, well I think The Stones weren't writing at that point, but they made sure they did because there was a terrific rivalry between the two, but it was only from The Stones point of view. The Beatles weren't bothered about The Rolling Stones, but The Rolling Stones were very bothered about The Beatles 'cause they watched them rising to fame, so popular so quick. I toured with The Rolling Stones two or three times 'cause my management put them on tour. When I was on tour I remember them talking about The Beatles in an envious fashion in fact, only saying, "Oh, we'll do this, we'll do that." It was always like petulant kids, but they were really young and desperate to become stars themselves and they were achieving that. It was mainly Mick Jagger who made the comments. It was irrelevant what they were doing because The Beatles were a law unto themselves because they were so good. They had wonderful voices. Paul McCartney's voice with John Lennon and George harmonizing was terrific. The Rolling Stones didn't have that.

Q - I would imagine that all of the groups at that time were envious of The Beatles' success and all trying to achieve that type of success.

A - It was only The Stones really that were in the race. They didn't write the songs The Beatles wrote. It wasn't until later and they didn't have the voices, didn't have the melody. From "Twist And Shout" to "Michelle", the range they covered in Rock 'n' Roll and into really nice ballads. Great lyrics. They were untouchable. There was nobody close.

Q - Brian Epstein invited you and a couple of other guys in your band, The Outlaws, back to his apartment where he played you a tape of The Beatles' songs. What was the purpose of that? Did The Beatles have a record deal at that time?

A - No. The tape was probably done in Germany at The Star Club or somewhere like that where all the groups used to play. I didn't play there but most other groups did. We weren't told, but looking back I think it was probably (done in Germany) 'cause they played a lot in Germany, The Beatles, and I think the recording was probably done there, but it was very poor quality. You know, didn't have the machines then, especially if you weren't in a recording studio. As so, when I heard it I was with a guy called Chas Hodges who was in my band The Outlaws. He was the bass player. He's in a duo now called Chas And Dave and they're really big in England.

Q - Do you remember any of the songs you might have heard on the tape?

A - No. It would have been standards. I don't know Coasters songs. There were all sorts of Bluesy, Rocky type American stuff that all the Liverpool bands covered. When the ships came in to the dock in Liverpool the sailors used to bring off all the records they'd picked up in the States and so Liverpool would get a record before anyone else in the country. So, all the bands would get these records and they'd share them with each other and learn them. All I remember about the tape itself is it was a bit of a mess. I couldn't really hear it very well. I remember Chas, who's a terrific musician, said he was impressed by the harmonies. That would've been with Paul's high, spot-on harmony. There were three of us that went back, Kenny, our rhythm guitar player, Chas, the bass player, and I. We went back there. I'm not sure which night we met The Beatles. I remember George had a black eye because some girl in the audience took a shine to him and her boyfriend didn't like it so he head-butted George and gave him a black eye. I said to him, "What happened to your eye?" He said, "Some bloke head-butted me. (laughs) His girlfriend was shouting out to him or liked him. Anyway, that's just part of the evening when we got together with The Beatles. I think they liked out band. We were a good band, good players, and they would have seen that. I've still got a pretty good voice even if I say it myself. I sing better now than ever. I was a good singer then, which is why I had a good band. In our area, we all sort of got together. They'd leave other bands and finish up with the best band, the best bass player, the best guitarist, the best drummer and singer. And so, that's how I ended up. I think The Beatles would have seen that, but we didn't have their terrific harmony capacity. They were all good players too, but we held our own too.

Q - The reason then that Brian Epstein invited you and the other guys over to hear The Beatles' tape is that he respected your opinion?

A - Well, to a degree. Yes, that would have been part of it, but the main thing was we'd been on tour. We'd been on Thank Your Lucky Stars, the band and I, performing a song called "Just A Matter Of Time". We had a hit with this "Tribute To Buddy Holly", but it wasn't played by the BBC 'cause it was one of those death records. It was about Buddy Holly being killed like that. They looked at it and said he's making money off of someone's misfortune. He'd been killed and we were making money. It wasn't the case at all. It was a very sincere record on my part 'cause I was a huge Buddy Holly fan. And so, because we'd been on Thank Your Lucky Stars and we'd had a hit record, Brian Epstein figured we were were pretty important and probably knew the people to go and see, but we didn't know any of that. We were in the dark (as much as) The Beatles were. In those days the management managed, the recording people recorded and the artist played and sang and never the twain shall meet. We didn't know anybody of any influence and had we known somebody to speak to we'd have said, "There's this great band in Liverpool" and they would've said, "So what?" Brian Epstein, in his naivete thought... that's why Paul McCartney gave me a lift home, back to my hotel. He was told to do that I'm sure by Brian Epstein. In fact, if I ever bump into Paul again, I shall ask him. He gave me a lift back, but that was all to butter me up and try to get me to look favorably on the band and Brian would say perhaps you can talk to somebody about my band, blah, blah, blah. That was why he wanted me to hear the tape and for me to go back to London and say there's this great band in Liverpool. You should sign them up. But of course I didn't have that influence, on top of which the tape wasn't good enough for me to hear it.

Q - Did Brian Epstein strike you as a guy who would be able to take The Beatles on to bigger and better things?

A - No, because it wouldn't have occurred to me. I was only an 18 year old kid and I didn't know anything about the recording industry, the management and all the rest of it. Besides, they weren't in London. The only acts are in London. They had no chance, initially. If they didn't go to London and get discovered there then it would never happen. And so it never even occurred to me that Brian Epstein would be a man that would take them to the top. He was a businessman. He ran a big record shop in Liverpool. He wasn't a big businessman like Richard Branson. He would've been able to just look after them in a business way, but in fact he lost them a lot of money in merchandising. If they'd have had a hit record and a London agent had taken them on, they'd have been looked after, but Brian Epstein didn't need to look after them. As soon as they were heard and seen, the public loved them. So, the tail was wagging the dog. It wasn't a case of Brian being a head, it was the case of the public wanting them so much that everybody said okay, let's do it and the recording thing all happened because they were so good and so popular.

Q - Brian delegated the merchandising deal to his lawyer, who thought it was beneath him to be negotiating t-shirt and lunch pail deals. The deal was terrible, a 90/10 split. 90% for the manufacturer of the Beatles's merchandise and 10% for The Beatles.

A - Yeah, well, I didn't hear all the details. I heard it was 80/20, maybe 90/10. I heard that he said about having a 90/10 or 80/20 split and they (The Beatles) thought he meant in his favor. When he said, "I'll get 10%," they just shut up and said, "Yeah, that's right," and they just took it. That's what I meant about his naivete. He was from a big town in England, but never the less he wasn't used to the sort of things that Lew Grade and the big agencies of London who were bringing Frank Sinatra over and they tried to bring Elvis over, but they brought all the other American stars over. They had this show called Sunday Night At The London Palladium, which The Beatles did in the end. Unless you were in London, Brian Epstein wouldn't have gotten them on those shows. The Beatles were so popular and so good that they smashed down any walls of the norm and the way business normally carried on. You know what happened is history. They just went to the top like a rocket. And why not? If you're that good, there's no holding.

Q - Brian Epstein also cleaned up the appearance of the group. Off went the leather jackets and on came the suits and ties.

A - I remember John Lennon commenting on The Rolling Stones. "People said they're rough and ready. We were made to wear suits by the manager. We used to be rougher than that." The Rolling Stones went on in their street clothes and they had long hair. But The Beatles didn't bother to stand on ceremony. They weren't really rebels. None of them were, Stones either. They were all just ordinary kids from middle class homes. The Stones particularly more so than The Beatles. The Beatles are more working class than The Rolling Stones except maybe Keith Richards. I think Brian Jones, Mick Jagger and Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts were all from fairly comfortable homes, particularly Mick and Brian Jones. They were really quite middle class. They weren't working class and they weren't posh. They were middle class. They weren't rebels at all.

Q - What were you guys wearing on stage? Were you wearing matching suits?

A - Yeah, that's right. That was the norm. That's why Brian Epstein got The Beatles in suits. He figured they'd need to impress the London crowd, the agents and different people, otherwise they wouldn't get on the posh shows. All the bands wore suits. Maybe the lead singer would dress differently and the others would wear band suits. I used to dress differently to the band. They'd wear band suits, whatever they were, all blue, all grey, and I'd have a different color 'cause I was the singer. There you go. The singer was always considered the leader of the group or the star of the group. With The Beatles, they were made to wear suits and even The Rolling Stones wore suits because I remember getting a very similar jacket made at the same tailor in Soho in London that they had. The guy said to me, "Would you like one of these?" I said, "Yeah, that's nice." I got the one with the hounds tooth check and the velvet collar and the velvet cuffs. I've still got it. It still fits. (laughs)

Q - Do you still wear it on stage?

A - I have done (it), but no, I don't. I have a white jacket I wear on stage which I first had when I had some success in the '80s. In 1980 I had a big Top Ten record and then a couple of others. I still wear that jacket and that's forty years ago. And it still fits!

Q - Was Ritchie Blackmore in The Outlaws?

A - Yeah. He joined The Outlaws. I'd already split with The Outlaws by the time he joined. In fact, he did back me. We did a Brenda Lee tour over here (England) for a guy called Don Arden, his agent. I was second on the bill to Brenda 'cause I had a Top Ten record. On this tour Ritchie Blackmore was with The Outlaws. They were booked on the tour to back me 'cause Sounds Inc, who was backing Brenda Lee, didn't want to back me as well because it would spoil the impact with Brenda. So therefore Ritchie Blackmore backed me on this tour with the rest of the band. So, that's my claim to fame, that Ritchie Blackmore backed me as part of The Outlaws.

Q - Was he as flamboyant of a guitarist as he became with Deep Purple?

A - No. He played a lot of notes, but they didn't mean much. He played too many notes. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase, "less is more."

Q - I sure have.

A - Particularly in music. Most of the great bands like Little Feat are typical of less is more. You get the basic feel, but it's great. It just works. But, Ritchie Blackmore didn't have any of that. He played a million notes, every note you could fit into a bar. He used to really tee me off. It wasn't until he got into Deep Purple that it worked. He was the boy for riffs, but a bit of a loose cannon.

Q - You're still working these days, are you not?

A - I am indeed.

Q - Where do you perform?

A - Different clubs around England and Scotland and Wales. I did a tour the end of last year (2017) for about two months all over the country with three other names from the U.K. Marty Wilde and Eden Kane and Marc Winter. I did a Rock 'n' Roll gig Saturday and it went down really well. If you can cut the mustard, the crowd will enjoy it and love you for it. Then you can earn the money. It's doing the gigs to enjoy the gigs now. Money is almost secondary. I mean, it's nice to get it, but it's to enjoy the gig. If you're not enjoying it, there's no point.

Official Website: www.MikeBerry.net

© Gary James. All rights reserved.