Gary James' Interview With
Stephen Wrench



Stephen Wrench has forty, count 'em, forty plus years in the music business. He's been a producer, a promoter, a personal manager, a songwriter and a musician. He's worked with acts like Lynyrd Skynyrd, Toto, Loverboy, Bob Seger, Rick Springfield and Ozzy Osbourne to name just a few. He's seen it all because he's done it all. These days he's the President of musikandfilm.com. And so we asked Stephen Wrench about the current state of affairs in the music industry.

Q - Stephen, I see you were born in Syracuse, New York. What years were you living in Syracuse?

A - I lived there until I was eighteen, from '51 to '69.

Q - Were you in any bands then?

A - Not really. Actually I played football and did sports.

Q - Did you ever go out to any of the local bars in Syracuse?

A - I used to go to Yellow Balloon for dollar beer nights. (laughs) They used to have really crappy beer and all you could drink for a dollar. They had Uncle Sam's there too. I used to go there too.

Q - Where'd you go to school?

A - I went to West Genessee.

Q - At eighteen you left Syracuse. Where'd you go?

A - Well, actually I had five football scholarships coming out of high school. Coming back from Boston College in the summer of '69 I saw a sign on the thruway that said Rock Concert. I had no idea what I was getting into, but that was Woodstock. I got up there a few days early and spent a few weeks there, which changed my life, literally.

Q - In what way?

A - I met a bunch of people there. One of 'em was a young lady who played guitar and sang. We ended up crossing paths and playing together here and there for the next six months. That was Bonnie Raitt. Nobody ever heard of her then. I met some guys who actually mailed me a letter at my parent's house six months later and said, "C'mon down to Jacksonville. We're forming a band." And that was the beginning of Lynyrd Skynyrd.

Q - Now that was kind of rare back then and probably still is today, an athlete who's a musician?

A - (laughs) I didn't plan on being a musician. It just happened. I play guitar. I sing. I write.

Q - Before I talk about Skynyrd, what was it like playing with Bonnie Raitt? Are you talking about being in a band?

A - It was just her and I. She was doing a single thing and so was I. We teamed up together for several months before anybody even knew who she was. She was just a no-name. That's it.

Q - When did you last see Bonnie?

A - Last time I saw Bonnie was about a year ago (2018) at the St. Augustine Ampitheatre. I went backstage and had a nice talk with her.

Q - In what capacity did you work with Skynyrd?

A - Technically I was termed as management. I played with a bunch of the guys. They came out and recorded with me. I played with them. Did some tours with them. It was kind of on again, off again.

Q - You then got to know the guys in the group pretty well?

A - Very well.

Q - What always baffled me is how a guy like Ronnie Van Zandt could be so precise in the recording studio, yet throw caution to the wind and board a rickety plane. I don't understand it.

A - Actually it wasn't rickety. The plane was fine. It was overcrowded, so some of us decided to drive, okay? The plane did not have mechanical fires. They were all doing so much cocaine, instead of hitting the switch fuel tank button they hit the dump button. They dumped fuel.

Q - That explains why they ran out of fuel then.

A - Artimus Pyle (Skynyrd drummer) did a documentary. I think he did it for Showtime or something. Judy Van Zandt (Ronnie Van Zandt's widow) took him to court. He had to delete half the stuff. He was telling me the real story of Lynyrd Skynyrd, not the junk that they released, and it is junk. He tried to tell the real story and Judy Van Zandt kaboshed the whole thing legally in court 'cause she had more money than Artimus. Artimus had to edit a lot of the parts out. Artimus tells the truth. Artimus does not lie. I'm still in touch with Arty. He used to be my neighbor for years. Artimus lives and breathes Lynyrd Skynyrd. He still looks the same as he did forty years ago, except a little grey on his hair. That's about it.

Q - As I recall, Artimus was told he couldn't use the name Lynyrd Skynyrd in conjunctions with that documentary. Am I correct in stating that?

A - Well, that was one of the concerns. When the plane crashed, Judy got everything. Prior to that it was an equal split band. Within days of the plane crashing, everybody got served that they were no longer members. They were no longer equal split. They were paid performers and that's it.

Q - You could've been on that plane then, but you opted to drive a car to the next gig, right?

A - In a van, yeah.

Q - Was it faster for you to get to the next gig in the van?

A - It wasn't that far of a drive. It wasn't a big deal.

Q - Probably one of the smartest moves you ever made.

A - Yeah, well, it just worked out that way, that's all. That's it.

Q - You worked with Grand Funk Railroad. What did you do for them?

A - Well, let me finish the Skynyrd stuff first because there's more to it. It was about twelve years ago (2007). I put together every living ex-member of Skynyrd and we did about a twenty date tour. We also added the founding member of Molly Hatchet, Banner Thomas, who's now passed away. We did a twenty date tour of Tex-Arkana and through there which was probably the best tour we ever did. It was fun.

Q - How were you able to do that tour if Judy Van Zandt had something to say about everything Lynyrd Skynyrd.

A - They had an attorney out of San Francisco. We couldn't use the name Skynyrd. We could state fact. We could state "Formerly Of", "Formerly With Lynyrd Skynyrd", "The Guys Who Created The Hits", which was fact. So that's what we did. And it worked.

Q - And Grand Funk?

A - Rocco Marshall was a friend of mine. He played with them. I played with Rocco quite a bit. We did a lot of stuff together. And that's about it. I didn't really work with Grand Funk, but he was with Grand Funk. He was with other people too. I'll tell you who I had the most fun with, Tommy Tutone. Do you remember Tommy?

Q - I do. I interviewed him.

A - I've done a lot of stuff with Tommy. One of my partners in Music And Film, Terry Nails was an original member in Tommy Tutone. I did a show with him last year. I hauled his butt up to Tupper Lake, New York. Tommy and I did an acoustic show together and then we went over to Vermont and did a show with the late Eddie Money and Rick Springfield at the Vermont State Fair.

Q - What caught my attention is this article you wrote on Linkedin, "Dear Artists Seeking Record Deals." What you're essentially saying is there is no record business anymore.

A - Well, I'll ask you this question and I ask these artists that. They're all looking for a record deal. I say, "When is the last time you bought a record?" They scratch their head. "Why would a record label want to sign you? So they could make a tenth of a cent of a stream?" Spotify is paying 1/13th of a cent. So is YouTube. They don't pay anything. I've got artists on our label like Deep Purple and Toto's "Africa". It makes $200 a month, but it gets three million streams a month. And that's all three million streams earn, nothing. I mean just give it away. It's not even worth putting it up digitally.

Q - Why haven't artists caught on about the streaming business?

A - Good luck trying to educate artists. They don't want to hear it and most artists are artists. They're not business people. They don't want to educate themselves. If you go on Google you'll get so many answers and they're all wrong. The reason the streaming came about, if you remember E.M.I. had filed bankruptcy. They were in receivership which was Capitol Records. Warner was ready to file bankruptcy. Sony was bleeding money. Sony made a deal with a company, a not-known company, a new company nobody had ever heard of called Spotify. They took a $50 million advance to stream their artists for one year, which was termed a sign-on bonus. Every year these labels take millions of dollars in sign-on bonuses to stream their catalog which they don't have to share with anyone. No one. So, all these major labels are healthy. They're rakin' in millions of dollars, yet they laid off 90% of their A&R staff 'cause they're not looking for any new artists. Atlantic Records is out there tryin' to schlepp artists to "Sign with us and pay for your promotion at label rates and we'll put you on our label." That's what they're doing now. The only money for an artist now is through touring. Touring and live performances. A lot of these artists don't get it. It's their own business. Unless they invest in it; it's like you could be the best chef in the world in the best restaurant, but if nobody knows you're there you're gonna close.

Q - An established artist probably feels having their older material online may help promote their new material. But you write, "Want to be famous? Travel, Tour the world and perform. Then invest in yourself because there is no record label on the planet that will." How can a struggling singer or band just starting off do the job that a record company used to do?

A - They can't. Here's the thing: We do radio promotions throughout the world. I tell people it's very simple if you want to tour the world. I'll give you an example. From Nowhere, Main, population 100. They had three Top 10 hits in Warsaw, Poland. I told 'em, "Radio thrives off of advertising. Talk to the Sales Department. Call 'em up," which they did. "We want to come over there and tour. We'd like your radio station behind us. Can you turn us on to your larger advertising venue?" So they did. They got a hold of the venue which held 3,000. The venue hired 'em, paid 'em fifteen grand and their expenses over there because these guys were in the Top 10. In Warsaw, Poland they were stars. But in Maine, they were nobody. Nobody ever heard of 'em. It's like a Billboard hit. The United States radio is so crooked. If you want a Billboard hit you've got to pay 'em off. It's that simple. We do Billboard campaigns too. They start out at $30,000. We had an artist last year (2018) hit number two. But it cost him over $100,000. I always tell him, "You could be Donald Duck and sing off key, but if you have enough money I'll get you in the Top Ten of Billboard." And that's a fact. It's not about talent.

Q - $100,000 to get a number two hit on Billboard?

A - I can get somebody on Billboard in the Top 100 for about $30,000. But then to climb into the Top 40 and Top 10 it's more and more money. Stations want to be paid off. They say payola is illegal, but it's not. They say if you take out an ad on our radio station, they create an advertisement they never play and that's a legal way of taking your money. It's that simple. These stations thrive and they make their living off major labels. Without them they die, and they know that. So, if you drop the money you're going to get a Billboard hit. The BBC is the largest radio network in the world. You hear in L.A. what you hear in New York at the same time. It's all pre-programmed. But the BBC has radio presenters. Not pre-programmed. These presenters put out new music. Their audience votes on it and that is what becomes their play list, which is the way it used to be here (America). You used to play a record here in the '50s, '60s, '70s, like it or smash it. People would vote on it and it would become a hit. And that's the way it should be. You can't pay the BBC any amount of money to play anything they don't like. We're the only crooked country in the world when it comes to radio air play. We're it.

Q - Does radio air play even mean anything anymore? I'm not sure people listen to the radio.

A - Sure they do. They want to hear a voice on the other end. You're driving in your car, there's a radio station playing in the background. But I've got articles up there on how relevant radio is. You cannot tour without radio support. People say I want to be on the Spotify play list. They've created thousands of Spotify play lists. Who's going to notice? Who's going to care? If your point is to tour the world, the only way you're going to tour is with radio air play. It's the only way you're going to get noticed. That's it. There is no other way.

Q - If there is no longer a record business, what happens to all of the support people who depend on record companies? I'm talking venues like theatres, stadiums, merchandisers, personal managers, booking agents, publicists.

A - They're screwed. The labels never asked anyone's permission about streaming. They just did it. The labels did it based on their own greed. They did not embrace the digital age. They fell behind and they're all going bankrupt. They're going to become the dinosaurs of yester year. Instead, they embraced streaming and ripped off every musician in the world. These musicians tried to get people together, but good luck trying to get every musician to pull their music off these sites. These sites are doing nothing for 'em. Most people make a dollar or two a month if they make that. So why even bother? The social media, all it is, is somebody wanting you to like their music. That doesn't do much for you either. It really doesn't, especially if you're a no-name. Radio is about the only way you're going to get noticed. That's about it. We got radio clients that tour the world. We got people that do it over and over every year. The difference is, if you're from Syracuse and you try to go over to Europe or the U.K. to play, they're gonna say, "Who the heck are you? What are you gonna draw? You're nothing." If you're on a local radio station there because in Europe the BBC and U.K. actually listen to radio 'cause it's interactive. The play lists are based on what the audience votes on. Did you hear of a play list here or a Billboard list here that the audience wants to hear? No. You won't see one anymore unfortunately in the U.S., but you do in other countries. I'm working with an artist outside of London right now. She's a model over there. I'm bringing her over to record in Nashville. She's quite good. But they listen to radio there, unlike here. It's a shame, but it's the way it is.

Q - There are some who would say the music of today is the most exciting. Do you agree with that?

A - If it's so exciting why is Classic Rock the most played genre? It's also the most purchased, the most bought. We've got a record label. I've got Toto, Loverboy, the groups are endless that we've got on the label for live performances. If I didn't have those between two hundred independent artists I might as well shut the door on it 'cause I wouldn't make anything. These guys, even though you think they're great artists and huge, they're only making one hundred to two hundred dollars a month. Toto's "Africa" is one of the most played songs in the world. It makes $200 to $300 a month streaming. That's it. So, where are you gonna go with that kind of income? You're not.

Q - Those artists were fortunate that they got in on the ground floor when the money was there to be made.

A - Exactly.

Q - It's not the same thing.

A - You're beating your head against the wall. Live venues are disappearing. They don't want to pay anything. They want you to bring in the crowd. They want to give you a percentage of the door fee. It's like you're a musician. You're not in the business of playing promoter. That's their business. It's sad.

Q - That mentality exists from the bars on up to the arenas.

A - In the States you have Live Nation, which has taken over just about every venue that exists. If you're a private promoter, and I used to promote shows and concerts, you can't even get radio air play or radio air time anymore 'cause they'll bump you off 'cause of Live Nation. It's just a rip.

Q - From the artists perspective and a personal manager's perspective you know when Live Nation promotes a concert you're going to get everything you asked for. So, I see why they would like it. For an independent concert promoter you're out of business.

A - You're out of business. That's right. Same with band managers. How are band managers going to make living or survive managing a group that makes a percentage of the door fee? They're not.

Q - How long do you think your business can survive?

A - We can survive quite well because we're the only one in the world. We do radio promotions in 180 countries. Very successfully. We have a quarter of a million stations around the world. We get major air play for a reasonable amount of money for indie artists. We get played in Asia, Europe, all over the world. If they use the tools that they're provided, they're able to tour these countries quite successfully. They make a good living without a problem or issue. They probably get paid ten times the amount they get paid here. I'll give you a for instance. A band that plays here that gets $500 a night on a Saturday night, and that's probably high pay, you can go over to Europe if you've got radio air play and you can make five to ten grand a night easily. Europeans have no problem paying $20 to $25 to see a no-name artist that they think is good. They want to discover new music, not what's shoved down their throats by the major labels here.

Q - In your line of work, do managers of bands seek you out or do you seek out the bands? How does that work?

A - We seek 'em. I have to listen to their music first because my partner is Terry Nails and he started out with Janis Joplin. He was a member of Guns 'n' Roses. The he was a member of Ozzy Osbourne and Tommy Tutone. Robin Robins is another one of our partners. Robin literally started a band with Bob Seger called the Silver Bullet Band. Robin went on to produce Van Morrison, U2, all kinds of people. We have to listen to the music first because we have a radio base based on our reputation. I'm not gonna throw any garbage out there. If it's not well produced or well done, I'm not even going to put it out to radio. We want to give 'em results. You want results? Here we go. You want a tour? Here we go. Here's your tour to do it with. Here's the amazing thing: a lot of these artists out there still think that they're going to be discovered. That's old school. It's just not going to happen. I don't care if you're Michael Jackson reincarnated. There's not a record label in the world that's going to invest in you. You're going to have to invest in yourself. I'll tell you what these labels are looking at. They're looking at two things. Number one, do you have a song catalog of original material that they can utilize in licensing or for other major artists that can make them money, besides you being in a band. That's one thing. Number two, unless you have at least two million YouTube followers, not Likes, I'm saying followers, and they can't be bought, they don't even want to look at you. Or, you can buy your way in. Buying your way in is something that is commonly done. I can take anybody today that's halfway talented, walk 'em in to any major label and say, "Okay, you've got the money to pay for promotion at label rates? You've got a half-million dollars to plunk out? Yeah, we'll put you on tour with Beyonce or whoever. Not a problem." If you're on tour with a major artist you're in front of 10,000 to 30,000 people a night. You've got an instant fan base. But it takes money to do that.

Q - You've got to be rich to get richer.

A - It's not rich. If you invest in a restaurant what do you put into a restaurant? $100,000 to start? It's the same thing. It's a business. You're just not going to be discovered anymore. It just doesn't happen. But if you want to treat it as a business, yes. Or, if you have enough good songs, you'll get a publishing deal 'cause they know they can utilize those songs. But you gotta get in the right place to do it too. You've got to get in front of the label. You've got to have the connections to get in front of the label.

Q - In the 1970s, this practice of getting a demo tape to a record label required a band to utilize the services of an entertainment attorney. That really helped kill the business. How many bands could afford to do that?

A - Yes, I can make appointments and walk into major labels. Do I want to? No. I utilize an entertainment attorney out of Miami, a friend of mine, Alan Jacoby. I've known him for years. He started a group called Miami Sound Machine. He's represented Eric Clapton and all kinds of people. He will take people for a minimal fee and a percentage of the deal. A lot of it is based on, "How good is the music?" And that matters!

Q - Do you watch shows like American Idol?

A - I watch The Voice and those other ones. It is rare that I hear anybody... Yes, they can sing the notes, but it's more than singing notes. Bob Dylan couldn't sing, but he could make the hair stand up on your arms because you could feel what was doing. These artists today don't get it. You gotta feel it. You gotta let your soul out of your body. People hear that. If you look at The Voice and all these shows, Carrie Underwood and Kelly Clarkson were the last two to make it. Who's made it since then? Nobody. You look at Kelly Clarkson. That girl can sing. She's just plain good. She's great. It's very rare to find that kind of talent.

Q - The whole apprenticeship system if you will for entertainment has changed. A band would start off playing school dances, then bars, graduate to opening slots on a concert stage in their hometown, and maybe get a record deal if their songwriting skills were good enough. Now the drinking age has been raised from 18 to 21. Everything has changed.

A - Everything's changed unfortunately. The music industry just sucks. I heard these guys say, "I have to record more tracks. I don't have the money for radio or promotion." I say why record more tracks if nobody is going to hear 'em? Why? It's 'cause they want to. They just don't get it.

Q - Old habits die hard.

A - Well, musicians today need to get educated into the fact of how they are going to make a living. You don't have to be a big star, but if you get radio air play all over Europe and Asia and the U.K. and other places all over the world, you can tour those places. You can make a very, very good living. I have a lot of people that make a very good, six figure income doing this. You haven't heard of 'em. Probably nobody has. They can go out and make a good living. That's the point. They work at it. They treat it like a business.

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